Believe it, we're next.

[sansou]

I'm a bit surprised no one has yet to mention the fact Susan Golding is the chair for Phase II of the MLPA implementation. That fact alone would stop most sane & self-respecting citizens from giving the MLPA any credence...

[Stormcrow]

And the point is?

I understand this is probably not the right forum to be discussing this in however, the Wooly Star is still a weed, and not a very good looking weed at that: http://ecoregion.ucr.edu/fullpicture...1&image_id=193 and: http://ecoregion.ucr.edu/fullpicture...1&image_id=194 but I guess beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

"Seven Oaks Dam Project is the Wooly Star's biggest threat" You mean to tell me it's not off roading, farming, cleaning the flood control channel, non-native grasses and cane?

I must be missing something. How important is 10 weeds vs. the importance of a reservoir to control flooding is?. Please educate me on this because I am ignorant and my common sense has abandon me once again?



:D Sounds like fun and suicide at the same time.

You mentioned viable population....I was simply addressing that.

The point is I was just adding to the conversation and agreeing with you on the fact that the ESA needs to be updated. You didnt miss anything. Sounds like I did.

But for the record. ANY species going extinct is a tragedy. All species have intrinsic value. To lose any is a huge loss in itself.

[TerryC]

"intrinsic value"

Thats were I disagree. Does a cockroach or termite have intrinsic value? What you consider value I, and many others, (maybe even the majority of the population ) may consider pests.

Biologist can write reports all they want, come up with all those foo foo names but it dosn't change the fact that this is a weed that serves little or no purpose. No one would mis it if it was gone.

To stop, hinder, or restrict maintenance of a flood control channel is insane for a population of ten weeds or anything else for that matter. Are those 10 weeds worth the lives of thousands of people down stream? or do humans have any instrisnic value? Protecting weeds is just a small example of what is wrong with the ESA.

[breeze71]

As a biologist I can tell you that the scientific data that forced closures north of Point Conception to rock fishing was not only accurate, but overwhelmingly so. Unfortunately, most of the data was directly tied to recreational fishing. What is worse, there are many species of rockfish affected and some scientists estimate that recovery will take decades. In addition, these are NOT arrogant east coast scientists but those working at Scripps, UCSB, UC Santa Cruz, University of San Francisco, and friends of mine from CSUF.


Fishing is a huge part of my life, but so is conservation. I can't support what youre doing here.

Unless you had the exact parameters to do the research & did the research yourself how could you possibly stand by the bold underlined statement?

All this information that you're throwing about being a marine biologist that knows his info inside and out is making me dizzy and probably many of the guys on here too. Why don't you go ahead and scan your PHD certificate in Marine Biology then post it here so all us skeptics can at least begin to think that you know your stuff & possibly help the phantom cause you are pursuing!

Interesting read on the wooley star that was mentioned.

The Santa Ana River Woolly Star - an endangered plant with stringy branches and small, purplish tubular flowers

I was interested in this because I live in LE. 20-25 min from Santa Ana River.

"In Riverside County this species is threatened by floodplain modification for flood control purposes and development; flood control management (clearing for channel maintenance and construction of flood control structures); off-road vehicle activity; grazing (resulting in heavy weed cover); farming; sand and gravel mining; and loss of habitat and competition with aggressive non-native species such as European grasses and river cane"

Santa Ana River woolly-star is known only from two small populations (less then 10 individuals) near Market Street within the City of Riverside and west of Fairmont Park and Golf Course http://ecoregion.ucr.edu/full.asp?sp_num=221

I would consider this a non-viable population not worth spending time or money on. How can anyone rationalize listing it? Its a weed, correction, ten weeds, that doesn't even contribute any significance to other wild life in the area, but those 10 weeds can stop and restrict human activity and flood plain development. Is ten weeds more important then flood plain maintenance and developement?

This is a perfect example of what the ESA does. If this species is of such importance, why isn't it transplanted, grown in a controled enviorment, and then re-introduced into it's natural habitat. Could it be that the powers that be considers it a weed not worthy of anything? Would it be irresponsible of the legislature to provide public funding to insure that this weed survives? Am I being to critical. Maybe I should cut back on my cafine intake.

Please tell me why the ESA dosen't need to be re-written.

@ Broken Rod...As for Glamis, here is an interesting read. Not sure how much wieght I would give to it but interesting none the less. http://www.glamisonline.org/Editorials/big_picture.asp

They can move those 10 weeds into my backyard if it's going to open up a thousand new jobs. I'm sure the weeds would thrive with the rest of thousand back there.

[Stormcrow]

Unless you had the exact parameters to do the research & did the research yourself how could you possibly stand by the bold underlined statement?

All this information that you're throwing about being a marine biologist that knows his info inside and out is making me dizzy and probably many of the guys on here too. Why don't you go ahead and scan your PHD certificate in Marine Biology then post it here so all us skeptics can at least begin to think that you know your stuff & possibly help the phantom cause you are pursuing!



They can move those 10 weeds into my backyard if it's going to open up a thousand new jobs. I'm sure the weeds would thrive with the rest of thousand back there.

Breeze, listen to me, and Ill use small words to make sure you understand: Someone insinuated that I didnt know what I was talking about. I simply provided my credentials in education....which apparently you missed as I never said I was a marine biologist. I do, however, hold an M.S. in Conservation Biology and now I am doing PhD work in the same field. Which happens to make me qualified to discuss this thread while a hater like yourself was probably not even in the same state.

Terry C disagrees with what has intrinsic value. I can understand that. At least I can respect that even if I dont agree with him. You, on the other hand, are looking to discredit me without bieng armed with any facts at all. My data comes from published, peer reviewed, scientific journals. Journals that you must subscribe to in order to access, so do yourself a favor and dont bother to ask what they are.

Im trying to make this a positive thread. You seem to be upset because you dont understand some of the terminology Im using. Thats not my fault. Your making it difficult. If you dont have anything constructive to say. Just leave. If you have anything mean to say to me, please do it by P.M.

One more thing. Dont you EVER change my font size in a quote from me again in an attempt to make me look like Im yelling. Thats cowardly and stupid. Did you think I didnt notice?

Now go mow your backyard.

Kthxbye

[Stormcrow]

"intrinsic value"

Thats were I disagree. Does a cockroach or termite have intrinsic value? What you consider value I, and many others, (maybe even the majority of the population ) may consider pests.

Biologist can write reports all they want, come up with all those foo foo names but it dosn't change the fact that this is a weed that serves little or no purpose. No one would mis it if it was gone.

To stop, hinder, or restrict maintenance of a flood control channel is insane for a population of ten weeds or anything else for that matter. Are those 10 weeds worth the lives of thousands of people down stream? or do humans have any instrisnic value? Protecting weeds is just a small example of what is wrong with the ESA.

Yes, I do believe that a termite and a cockroach have intrinsic value. We all might think, myself included, that both species are pests, which they are. However, neither of us understand the depth of evolution in its entirety and both termites and cockroaches fill a niche in their ecosystems on a level that we may not completely grasp. I would never be so arrogant as to think that because I have to use Raid from time to time that Earth would be better off without cockroaches and termites.

[TerryC]

Stormcrow...I will always disagree with that argument. I do realize some species effect the ecosystem more than others. Species that are listed as endangered have minimal effect on the ecosystem. In other words, the effects on the ecosystem has already occurred or has ran its coarse.

The divide is what to do or how to handle it. To invoke a general closure of a area or restrict activity or development for an infinite amount of time lacks common sense in most cases.

Most of the time, in the biological report, it list a whole host of reasons that may have contributed to the species degradation. That same list of reasons may not have contributed to the species degradation as well.

The closure of public or State land should never be left up to a agency that dose not answer to the electorate. All public closures should be required to pass a standards test prior to closure for the protection of a species.

This standards test should be required to have legislative approval and mandated funding to restore the species to a sustainable number that can survive the historical activity that occurs in the area.

If this can not be accomplished or the legislature does not list or fund the recovery then the species and its habitat should not warrant any further protection or restricted use.

The legislature should be responsible for closures not an agencies administrators that might fall prey to outside influences or favor a special interest agenda. Keep in mind these species and there habitats do not belong to any agency, any biologist, any enviromentalist group, or a off road group. They belong to the people. Agencies do not answer to the people...the legislature does.