Food for Thought

[DarkShadow]

http://www.outdoorcanada.ca/Fishing-for-nesting-bass


If the male is removed from his brood at any point during the four to five week period of parental care, his brood is quickly consumed by brood predators (approximately 50 per cent after ten minutes of male absence). Harvest of a guarding male results in 100-percent brood destruction. Catch-and-release angling of a guarding male results in partial consumption while he is off the nest, and 100 per cent destruction if he abandons that nest as a result of the angling incident, which is not uncommon.

[shinbob]

We all have to accept that fishing, even catch-and-release fishing, is not really in the best interests of the fish. For example, studies show that a non-trivial number of wild trout will die after C&R, even if barbless hooks are used.

I do fish LMB in the spring, but always release immediately, hopefully that helps. While I don't purposely target bedding fish, I do realize that by fishing in less than 20 feet of water I'm probably catching spawning fish.

I like what Castaic does, closing off dry gulch to fishing during the spawn. Gives them a chance. Tournaments should also consider allowing for some kind of immediate measure-and-release in the spring, as transporting all those hundreds of fish to the launch ramp is essentially killing their whole nest.

Having said that, people have been fishing for bass for decades in these local lakes, and they seem to be doing just fine.

[DarkShadow]

Having said that, people have been fishing for bass for decades in these local lakes, and they seem to be doing just fine.

Isnt "fine" a relative term tho?

Fine compared to what?

[seal]

By far the majority of the time when a male is caught and immediately released in close proximity to their nest they return very quickly. So to me the boaters and tournament anglers that chastise occasional catch and keep anglers are a bit hypocritical. I feel it's possible that many that take the fish off beds and give them a ride around the lake either for the glory 5 fish picture or for weigh in are the ones that are affecting the spawn more significantly.

A little reality check is good for all of us, some just don't want to admit that they have an impact on bass mortality.

Besides all of that poop bass are not exactly an endangered species in most lakes so no big deal, oh and I know the inner city park lakes are a whole different discussion.

[DarkShadow]

By far the majority of the time when a male is caught and immediately released in close proximity to their nest they return very quickly.

I think that's the point of this post and this study. The people who think that releasing bedding fish immediately are not doing harm are in for some bad news.

Even if you do release them immediately, the study says that even if released, a vast percentage of the fry will eventually die. Yes, even if released.


If the male is removed from his brood at any point during the four to five week period of parental care, his brood is quickly consumed by brood predators (approximately 50 per cent after ten minutes of male absence).

i.e, When you pull that male off and even have it away from it's nest for TEN minutes, 50% of the fry will die.


Harvest of a guarding male results in 100-percent brood destruction.

i.e, When you fry that male, 100% of his fry will die.


Catch-and-release angling of a guarding male results in partial consumption while he is off the nest, and 100 per cent destruction if he abandons that nest as a result of the angling incident, which is not uncommon.

i.e, Oh, you say you catch and release? Check out those odds. "Partial consumption" at best, and "100% destruction" at worse. Yes, even if you release them. Essentially, just because he swam back to the nest, doesn't mean he'll guard it.

Again, since science isn't really legitimized in this day in age, this can be labeled as "fake news" if it suits you.

[seal]

Everything we do as anglers can and does result in some death of fish. Catch and release for trout no matter how careful them suckers can be very delicate. I can't remember at any time catch and releasing bass where I have the fish out of the water for more than a couple minutes so not too many of those little babies die. The only answer is no fishing during the spawning months period. I love those that say they don't catch bedding bass, how the hell do they know? You may not target them but when you are tossing shallow in the spring and catch one it is quite possibly a fish that was on the bed or around it.

I have no problem with any of it though at this point, it seems largemouth are a pretty durable bunch, damn things are in every body of water it seems and eating up all the poor striper fry but not to worry the stripers get their revenge. Funny not long ago I read on the Internet an article on stripers that stated stripers don't really prey on small largemouth because of the sharp fins, hahahahahahahahha! I've seen schools of baby largemouth committing hari-kari on the beach trying to get away from stripers. Same article was talking about stripers not spawning in lakes. So much crap out there on the Internet, yes much of it is quite possibly fake news.

[twin22s]

So to summarize bed fishing...
keeping a fish and eating it, fish dies, and offspring die.
Keeping a fish away from the nest or fry its guarding for the rest of the day(turny or glory shot) fish lives offspring die.
Taking too long to release a fish caught from a bed some of the offspring will die.
Releasing a fish immediately back there is a chance some of the offspring will die.
Staying home and posting random crap on the internet, a bird could eat the fish and they all still die...

The bass population in most lakes is not in jeopardy, catch and release immediately is the best practice short of not catching them at all. I don't lose any sleep at night wondering if i inadvertently caused the destruction of some eggs or fry. What’s the survival rate of bass anyway, 1%?

[shinbob]

So to me the boaters and tournament anglers that chastise occasional catch and keep anglers are a bit hypocritical.

Yeah - post a picture of 2 or 3 LMBs on a stringer, and people will completely LOSE THEIR MINDS.

But post a springtime picture of 5 bass in a livewell at the launchramp, resulting in the deaths of 50,000 fry (which equates to 50 adult bass)... crickets...

[seal]

So to summarize bed fishing...
keeping a fish and eating it, fish dies, and offspring die.
Keeping a fish away from the nest or fry its guarding for the rest of the day(turny or glory shot) fish lives offspring die.
Taking too long to release a fish caught from a bed some of the offspring will die.
Releasing a fish immediately back there is a chance some of the offspring will die.
Staying home and posting random crap on the internet, a bird could eat the fish and they all still die...

The bass population in most lakes is not in jeopardy, catch and release immediately is the best practice short of not catching them at all. I don't lose any sleep at night wondering if i inadvertently caused the destruction of some eggs or fry. What’s the survival rate of bass anyway, 1%?

Thanks for the accurate summary. I say killing all the damn birds is the answer.

[contium]

Isnt "fine" a relative term tho?

Fine compared to what?

Exactly. If you have ever been fishing outside Southern California, you wont think it's so fine. Our lakes around here are tiny in all reality. Having a tournament during the spawn on a 500 acre lake sure as heck isn't doing the population any good.

[DarkShadow]

Yeah - post a picture of 2 or 3 LMBs on a stringer, and people will completely LOSE THEIR MINDS.

But post a springtime picture of 5 bass in a livewell at the launchramp, resulting in the deaths of 50,000 fry (which equates to 50 adult bass)... crickets...

I think your example above is what this article is trying to expose.

(In fact, in some places, those 2 or 3 lmbs on a stringer might be considered selective harvest, ultimately helping the fishery.)

But I think the study, like your comment above, is hopefully eye opening to those who think releasing a bedding fish and it going back to its nest, means the angler hasn't affected the future of the fry one bit, when in fact, this scientific experiment proved otherwise.


So to summarize bed fishing...
keeping a fish and eating it, fish dies, and offspring die.
Keeping a fish away from the nest or fry its guarding for the rest of the day(turny or glory shot) fish lives offspring die.
Taking too long to release a fish caught from a bed some of the offspring will die.
Releasing a fish immediately back there is a chance some of the offspring will die.
Staying home and posting random crap on the internet, a bird could eat the fish and they all still die...

The bass population in most lakes is not in jeopardy, catch and release immediately is the best practice short of not catching them at all. I don't lose any sleep at night wondering if i inadvertently caused the destruction of some eggs or fry. What’s the survival rate of bass anyway, 1%?

With this kind of thinking, can't you just come to the conclusion that because every little living thing on earth eventually dies, who cares about it?

And isn't it kinda disingenuous bundling 'natural predation' with human influence, and saying that since birds eat the fry, it doesn't really matter if people bed fish or not? I hope the economy isn't that bad, that people are depending on eating fry from our lakes for their basic survival.

I'll buy someone a Filet-o-Fish if that's the case. (Offer only valid on Fridays, PM me for more details)

http://i.imgur.com/mOUfnm4.jpg


Exactly. If you have ever been fishing outside Southern California, you wont think it's so fine. Our lakes around here are tiny in all reality. Having a tournament during the spawn on a 500 acre lake sure as heck isn't doing the population any good.

And my comment about relativity wasn't even referencing lakes outside of Southern California, because the quality of the fisheries elsewhere is hard to quantify when you have a plethora of factors affecting them, such as population, geography, fishing pressure, and environmental variables.

I was referring to these same lakes, where years back, it seemed that the population and average size of fish were in better shape than they are today. Of course, this is all based on anecdotal evidence and recollection, and the comparing of notes with other anglers who have also been on the water for decades and shockingly notice similar findings.

But we could be completely wrong.

[twin22s]

My sarcasric stab aside, this study was done in canada, on smallmouth bass. Being caught and then abandoning the nest or brood is something i have never personally seen a LMB in SoCal ever do. maybe because being caught every once in awhile has become normal for them and doesn't throw them off as much. To DS's original point that glory shots and turnaments durring the spawn is very bad for the population, well if you thought otherwise you are either uninformed or just lying to yourself. I rest easy knowing that there are so many concerned anglers like myself out there, keeping everyone aware of the dangers of bed fishing and the best ways to reduce our impact on the population and still have a little fun.
As for the noticable decline in size and number of fish there are a lot of factors, possibly even releasing too many small bass. My neighbor in Oklahoma had a 1 acre pond that was full of 1-2lb fish. we would catch hundreds of them, eat some stock some in our pond and we never could get enough of them out of there to produce bigger fish.

Fish education in high pressure lakes makes bigger ones very hard to catch also.

either way I would agree that the incressed fishing pressure is causing the decline, but without biomass studies and scientific sampling of specific bodies of water over many years it it impossible to know for sure if the fish are just smarter, smaller or declining in population as a whole.

[shinbob]

either way I would agree that the increased fishing pressure is causing the decline, but without biomass studies and scientific sampling of specific bodies of water over many years it it impossible to know for sure if the fish are just smarter, smaller or declining in population as a whole.

My impression -- all of the above. I think tactics are much improved over the olden days. Now any schmoe can go out with one rod rigged with a dropshot roboworm, another rigged with a wacky rigged senko, and have a really, really good chance of catching a decent number of fish.

Fishing pressure also -- have you been on Pyramid or Castaic during a big tournament? At Pyramid, EVERY point and cove will get worked over multiple times by folks that know what they're doing. Those fish have seen every trick in the book.

I rarely catch a bass on artificials at those two lakes over 3-4 lbs, but when I use live shad I can catch 10-pounders, even at Pyramid. So the fish are there, they're just getting smarter by the minute.

[DarkShadow]

So the fish are there, they're just getting smarter by the minute.

My original post was based on, what I would call, scientific research, considering the vast methods that were used.

The 'smarter by the minute' theory... are there any studies that confirm that largemouth bass become smarter when more fishing pressure is applied? I'd love to get my hands on some of that research, since this isn't the first time I've heard that SoCal bass have higher IQs than their counterparts in other states.

I'm sure there is research out there and I'm curious to find out.

[shinbob]

I'm sure there is research out there and I'm curious to find out.

There's this (abstract only):
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00028487.2016.1194894

Also page 2 of this pdf:

http://sfrc.ifas.ufl.edu/pdf/newsletters/Waterworks_June2014.pdf

I don't think the concept that bass can learn to avoid lures (OK, it's conditioning, not really getting "smarter") is that far-fetched. Lakes that are private or recently re-opened (e.g. San Vicente) fish so much better than pressured lakes (e.g. Castaic).