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vineline
07-17-2015, 09:17 AM
Anglers:

To clarify the new policy of no private boats on the lake, three years ago an incident occurred where 2 individuals on an unauthorized boat
drown. A lawsuit was filed against Irvine Lake and as a result, our insurance will not allow the use of private boats. We regret this inconvenience.


Read more on the incident: http://www.ocregister.com/articles/boat-360609-lake-doan.html


Board of Directors,
Irvine Lake

shinbob
07-17-2015, 09:39 AM
While I feel bad for their families, these 4 idiots were in an 8 foot (!!!!) boat at night without life jackets, and there is a lawsuit against the lake? This is why we can't have nice things...

Lady Quagga
07-17-2015, 09:49 AM
While I feel bad for their families, these 4 idiots were in an 8 foot (!!!!) boat at night without life jackets, and there is a lawsuit against the lake? This is why we can't have nice things...

Indeed. But I do find it a little confusing.

1. What made the boat "unauthorized"? Did they sneak in?
2. Weren't/Aren't there liability waivers that are signed by private launchers?

dixoncider
07-17-2015, 10:23 AM
You know what really sucks about this.. This will in no way prevent what happened from happening again.. You can still launch "Unauthorized"...
Out at DVL you have to get your boat inspected and get some sticker from the water district, Maybe some inspection policy could work?
Really hope you guys can work it out so we can launch again..
one more thing? Can you launch on the 23rd or is the 22nd the last day?

HawgZWylde
07-17-2015, 10:52 AM
Trial lawyers and dishonest people suck. This can have ramifications for any and every body of water that has private launches. Signed disclaimers or not. Typical "it's not my fault that I broke the law" attitude that so prevails modern society. They break the law and it's YOUR fault so you have to pay for it. Insurance companies suck as well because rather than fight for what's right, they settle to reduce litigation costs. Yes, I feel bad for the families left behind but their loved ones broke the rules and the public must now pay for it. They, and their attorneys should be ashamed but most trial attorneys and dishonest people have no shame...

flyhigh123
07-17-2015, 11:35 AM
look for a new insurance company. dont let your insurance company dictate how you run your business. Check with a broker and shop it out to get the most competitive bid for what you want.

shinbob
07-17-2015, 11:48 AM
1. What made the boat "unauthorized"? Did they sneak in?

I'm guessing the word "unauthorized" is not quite the correct word to use in this context. Maybe better to say "non-conforming with regulations"? Like exceeding the load capacity, having the right # of life jackets and throwables on board, etc...

The lake was probably sued for not making sure all regulations were being met. In all the times I've launched at local lakes, I've never been checked for these things. But I've heard it occasionallly happens, especially at Castaic.

seal
07-17-2015, 12:48 PM
Unauthorized to me would be a private vessel that did not get registered for launch at the entrance. Remember boats have a launch fee and although I've only float tubed or rented out there I would assume there is/was a cursory inspection or document signature required if a boat was launched, I'm sure some on here know this answer better than I. If I'm correct then they did not pay a launch fee and this was a boat that may have been an inflatable, one that nobody would see come through the entrance.

But all just speculation.

etucker1959
07-17-2015, 12:58 PM
look for a new insurance company. dont let your insurance company dictate how you run your business. Check with a broker and shop it out to get the most competitive bid for what you want.
I totally agree with you on this one!!!! I would find it hard to believe that Irvine Lake is now, "Uninsurable by all Insurance company's of the World!!!!!" If it costs a lot to more to insure private boats, just pass it on to the consumer!!!! Then let them decide if they want to pay it or not!!!!! What I hope didn't happen, is a knee jerk reaction to losing a lawsuit.

HawgZWylde
07-17-2015, 01:08 PM
I'm guessing the word "unauthorized" is not quite the correct word to use in this context. Maybe better to say "non-conforming with regulations"? Like exceeding the load capacity, having the right # of life jackets and throwables on board, etc...

The lake was probably sued for not making sure all regulations were being met. In all the times I've launched at local lakes, I've never been checked for these things. But I've heard it occasionallly happens, especially at Castaic.

The only time our boat was inspected for regulation compliance was at DVL for a Striper tourney. But that should be up to LE, not the lake concessionaire. It boils down to people must accept responsibility for themselves unless gross negligence by the concessionaire is involved. Without knowing the full circumstances surrounding the drownings it's impossible to make a fair judgement though...

JAG107
07-17-2015, 01:21 PM
They used to check for lifejacket s. Bottom line is they're going to take a big hit by losing private boaters. Who's going to leave their vessel at home and fish here from shore or pay for a rental when there's at least one good alternative nearby. Its a very sad time we live in. No doubt. Its not like jimmy went out there and popped those morons' kiddie raft and watched them drown. What if someone is driving a car without seatbelts, gets killed in an accident, does the family get to sue DMV for not having a representative there to inspect the car prior to it being driven every time?

seal
07-17-2015, 01:26 PM
Here's the article from the Register.

Note this comment from the article ""I don't know what caused it to capsize, if there was a leak or something malfunctioned," Sounds like they inflated a boat then launched "unauthorized". I guess it still could have been a solid boat with a leak but that would have been a pretty catastrophic leak.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/search-360507-orange-county.html

HawgZWylde
07-17-2015, 01:39 PM
I'm assuming this is the incident in question;
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/search-360507-orange-county.html

I have a question for anyone reading this, how many of you go out on boats and don't know how to at least minimally swim?

***This article says it was an inflatable...
http://abclocal.go.com/story?section=news/local/orange_county&id=8712656

HawgZWylde
07-17-2015, 01:40 PM
Here's the article from the Register.

Note this comment from the article ""I don't know what caused it to capsize, if there was a leak or something malfunctioned," Sounds like they inflated a boat then launched "unauthorized". I guess it still could have been a solid boat with a leak but that would have been a pretty catastrophic leak.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/search-360507-orange-county.html

Lol, well I guess we were typing at the same time seal...

Doghunter
07-17-2015, 01:42 PM
I'm guessing they probably snuck it in after dark. They probably jumped the fence down the road somewhere, carried it down and dropped it in the water. Trying to put 4 adults in an 8' boat, definitely not the smartest thing to do.

shinbob
07-17-2015, 01:45 PM
Here's the article from the Register.

Note this comment from the article ""I don't know what caused it to capsize, if there was a leak or something malfunctioned," Sounds like they inflated a boat then launched "unauthorized". I guess it still could have been a solid boat with a leak but that would have been a pretty catastrophic leak.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/search-360507-orange-county.html

If you look at the pictures (pretty heartbreaking actually, one of the victim's wife was quite pregnant), the captions state that the boat was fiberglass. Not that this is definitive, just another source that could be wrong.

What does an 8 foot fiberglass boat look like? Something like the below. And there were 4 grown men on it?

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/92275d1403756578-roof-box-boat-roof-top-nirvana-missions-boat-lamoore-8ft2-trihull.jpg

HawgZWylde
07-17-2015, 01:51 PM
If you look at the pictures (pretty heartbreaking actually, one of the victim's wife was quite pregnant), the captions state that the boat was fiberglass. Not that this is definitive, just another source that could be wrong.

What does an 8 foot fiberglass boat look like? Something like the below. And there were 4 grown men on it?

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/boat-design/92275d1403756578-roof-box-boat-roof-top-nirvana-missions-boat-lamoore-8ft2-trihull.jpg

That's what I read and I'll bet they somehow got most of the weight on one side and it flipped over. A sad tragedy but why must everyone pay for their negligence?

dixoncider
07-17-2015, 02:17 PM
It was a little cheap inflatable raft like a kids toy type.. 4 dudes in it..

iPhish
07-17-2015, 02:52 PM
Anglers:

To clarify the new policy of no private boats on the lake, three years ago an incident occurred where 2 individuals on an unauthorized boat
drown. A lawsuit was filed against Irvine Lake and as a result, our insurance will not allow the use of private boats. We regret this inconvenience.


Read more on the incident: http://www.ocregister.com/articles/boat-360609-lake-doan.html


Board of Directors,
Irvine Lake

I'm sorry Irvine Lake but there's more to this story and you aren't telling us. Your business will take a HUGE hit unless you do something about this. And most likely end up closing up shop! Here's a few questions some may be asking in their head.

1. When was the lawsuit filed? (Fill us in with the Case Info!)
2. What's the status of the lawsuit? Judgement entered, Settlement, etc!
3. Insurance policies usually last 6 to 12 months. This was more than 3 YEARS AGO, your insurance company has got to have known this "could" have been an issue. So why is it an issue now upon this renewal period?
4. Your private launch fees are very high. I can now assume it's been to pay high insurance premiums for private launchers. You certainly haven't put much money into launching facilities for the past few years.
5. Maybe you need a new insurance agent and company? Why not allow private boaters to provide proof of insurance, name Irvine Lake an ADDITIONAL INSURED on private boater's policy, minimum coverage for like $500K or $1M, I'm sure Irvine's Lake policy is no more than $1M if $2.5M at the most. Every few months do a boat inspection and insurance inspection, charge the boater for the time to do the inspection. And in return reduce or remove the private boat launch fees.

But I promise you Irvine Lake, if you don't do something or change your pricing schedule accordingly for fishing and rentals, etc. You will be out of business by next year! Just look at the comments you've been getting here. The future of your business rests with this decision!

etucker1959
07-17-2015, 03:00 PM
I'm sorry Irvine Lake but there's more to this story and you aren't telling us. Your business will take a HUGE hit unless you do something about this. And most likely end up closing up shop! Here's a few questions some may be asking in their head.

1. When was the lawsuit filed? (Fill us in with the Case Info!)
2. What's the status of the lawsuit? Judgement entered, Settlement, etc!
3. Insurance policies usually last 6 to 12 months. This was more than 3 YEARS AGO, your insurance company has got to have known this "could" have been an issue. So why is it an issue now upon this renewal period?
4. Your private launch fees are very high. I can now assume it's been to pay high insurance premiums for private launchers. You certainly haven't put much money into launching facilities for the past few years.
5. Maybe you need a new insurance agent and company? Why not allow private boaters to provide proof of insurance, name Irvine Lake an ADDITIONAL INSURED on private boater's policy, minimum coverage for like $500K or $1M, I'm sure Irvine's Lake policy is no more than $1M if $2.5M at the most. Every few months do a boat inspection and insurance inspection, charge the boater for the time to do the inspection. And in return reduce or remove the private boat launch fees.

But I promise you Irvine Lake, if you don't do something or change your pricing schedule accordingly for fishing and rentals, etc. You will be out of business by next year! Just look at the comments you've been getting here. The future of your business rests with this decision!
I would say the majority of the people on this board have Conservative leanings!!!! With that being said, what is the Conservative view point on business? Only the strongest should survive!!! Bad business decisions means their OUT OF BUSINESS!!!! Maybe we will get lucky and some one new takes over and solves this problem!!

Deceiver
07-17-2015, 04:16 PM
Very sad news, both of the tragic death of these two men, and of the fate of Irvine Lake. Lots of details still not available. I hope that the restriction on the private boats is because the lawsuit is PENDING and not final...and I hope that once settled, Irvine Lake will again be able to allow private boats on the lake.

BlueGillChaser
07-17-2015, 05:00 PM
Most of the people that fish Irvine use rental anyway.

etucker1959
07-17-2015, 06:27 PM
Most of the people that fish Irvine use rental anyway.
I was waiting for someone to say that!!!!! Irvine will lose some revenue, but it isn't going anywhere!!!! (the fish stocks maybe smaller though)

chompot
07-17-2015, 06:32 PM
I was waiting for someone to say that!!!!! Irvine will lose some revenue, but it isn't going anywhere!!!! (the fish stocks maybe smaller though)

Ding ding ding!!! The amount of shore fisherman and people who rent boats there is amazing at times.

muskyman
07-17-2015, 08:14 PM
Sorry to hear that. Both for the families and the lake. Due to insurance it's understandable. We loose people out here every year, mainly in the springtime, almost like clockwork too. It's a way of life out here. Inevitable. But people are different out here and the lack of lawyers help as well.

JHDucky
07-17-2015, 08:54 PM
I mainly shore fish but sometimes I do rent a boat. I don't own a boat, a float tube or any other watercraft. I plan on continuing my support of Irvine Lake. I do not know for a fact how they got their boat in the water, inspected paid launch fees or didn't say how many were going out in it at a time. It is a shame the accident happened, but seeing the attacks here on the Irvine Lake staff after all the support over the years of this group and the people here AGAIN makes me wonder why I stay here. I do miss Dana. My he not see what is going on here and roll over in his grave.

BentRod
07-18-2015, 04:34 PM
at the risk of sounding like an uncaring ***. It is a shame that the stupidity of others affects the majority. Sorry but the truth hurts sometimes

DEVOREFLYER
07-18-2015, 08:01 PM
It is a sign of the times. No one has any personal responsibility and it's always someone else at fault. You can't buy a product without a ridiculous warning label. I can hear the attorneys claims now. No trespassing signs or not enough of them. The signs weren't in large enough print. Signs weren't in 84 different languages. The fence wasn't tall enough to keep people out. No warning signs about the dangers. Not enough security to keep people out. No life guards after hours to keep trespassers safe. I would bet any amount of money that it did not go to trial and the insurance company rolled over on the insured faster than Rin Tin Tin and Lassie. That is the society we live in today.

Keeponchuckin
07-19-2015, 10:32 AM
Is this final or are you guys looking for new insurance .

Brent
07-19-2015, 12:19 PM
Trial lawyers and dishonest people suck. This can have ramifications for any and every body of water that has private launches. Signed disclaimers or not. Typical "it's not my fault that I broke the law" attitude that so prevails modern society. They break the law and it's YOUR fault so you have to pay for it. Insurance companies suck as well because rather than fight for what's right, they settle to reduce litigation costs. Yes, I feel bad for the families left behind but their loved ones broke the rules and the public must now pay for it. They, and their attorneys should be ashamed but most trial attorneys and dishonest people have no shame...

You're 100% correct. Let's punish everyone for the foolish actions of a few. doesn't make sense.
You cannot sue away or make laws to prevent people from doing ridiculously dangerous things. Forest Gump said it best.

Steve Carson
07-20-2015, 09:47 AM
Is this final or are you guys looking for new insurance .



This is now final, and the lawsuit itself is settled and over with. There are only a handful of insurance companies that cover recreational fishing lakes. We have spoken to all of them.

seal
07-20-2015, 10:08 AM
End of an era, end of fishing Irvine lake for many of us. The thought from some re: not that many private boaters, tubes and kayaks obviously have no idea what they are talking about. Many that are repeat, every weekend anglers used their own vessels.

Very sad

HawgZWylde
07-20-2015, 10:18 AM
This is now final, and the lawsuit itself is settled and over with. There are only a handful of insurance companies that cover recreational fishing lakes. We have spoken to all of them.

Sad and there seems to be double standard here. Why are lakes like Perris and Silverwood that allow all forms of lake lice and have incidents of serious injury and even death not facing similar outcomes yet a small fishing only lake is now off limits to private boating due to illegal activity that resulted in death by their own illegal and negligent actions. Beyond sad and actually an outrage to me...

shinbob
07-20-2015, 10:57 AM
Sad and there seems to be double standard here. Why are lakes like Perris and Silverwood that allow all forms of lake lice and have incidents of serious injury and even death not facing similar outcomes yet a small fishing only lake is now off limits to private boating due to illegal activity that resulted in death by their own illegal and negligent actions. Beyond sad and actually an outrage to me...

So can this happen to other lakes? Specifically, I'm thinking of Pyramid, with those two guys that drowned last year. Yes, Pyramid is a public lake, but isn't the concession run by a private company?

dixoncider
07-20-2015, 10:59 AM
This is the worst news ever... SO LAME...

HawgZWylde
07-20-2015, 11:14 AM
So can this happen to other lakes? Specifically, I'm thinking of Pyramid, with those two guys that drowned last year. Yes, Pyramid is a public lake, but isn't the concession run by a private company?

I don't know but it sure seems like it would set precedent for other suits. The guys at Pyramid were fishing during legal hours and not trespassing when the lake was closed. What just happened to the Irvine lake concessionaires is just flat out wrong...

DEVOREFLYER
07-20-2015, 11:30 AM
It appears that the men were fishing during legal hours and my guess is that Irvine did not police the clientele and boats that are launched.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/boat-360609-lake-doan.html

shinbob
07-20-2015, 11:39 AM
It appears that the men were fishing during legal hours and my guess is that Irvine did not police the clientele and boats that are launched.

That's how I read the situation also. Conjecture, but the lawsuit may have been for failure to enforce their own boating rules. In which case, why can't other lakes, private or public, also suffer the same fate? Did the guys at Pyramid have the right number of life jackets and throwables on board? I've never been checked.

Aren't there any laywers here with access to Westlaw etc... that can give us more info on this case?

Another annoyance for me -- what if this happened on the ocean, who would they have sued? Nobody of course. They were "fortunate" (in quotes to not trivialize the death of these two) that it happened on an insured lake. But we all pay the price.

HawgZWylde
07-20-2015, 11:58 AM
It appears that the men were fishing during legal hours and my guess is that Irvine did not police the clientele and boats that are launched.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/boat-360609-lake-doan.html

Indeed, the other articles did not make it clear if they had sneaked in or not. Still, where does personal responsibility come in? Why must everyone else have to babysit and pay for adult stupid?

DEVOREFLYER
07-20-2015, 12:38 PM
After 17 years as an expert witness and litigation consultant nothing surprises me anymore. Until we have litigation reform and loser pays nothing will change. The sad and sorry fact is most lawsuits filed are frivolous to some degree or the other. We have legal system where trial lawyers sue everyone under joint and several liability and contributory negligence. Name a half a dozen or more defendants that have insurance and the insurance carriers will settle in a heartbeat. It is legalized extortion. A dead, disfigured or disabled child is the biggest award winners in the legal lotto game and you can't have enough insurance.

It costs on average for an insurance company to go to trial $40,000 and winning for the insurance company is not a sure bet. Better to settle for less than the $40,000 to make it go away. I can’t tell you the number of cases I turned down because they were frivolous or weak and someone else took the case. I have asked other experts why they to such a case and the reply was a paycheck is a paycheck win or lose I still get paid. My moral compass never let me do that and I am sure my wallet suffered for it; however in 17 years I never lost a case or failed to get my clients a settlement. Oh and I slept well at night.

A few legal facts:
96% of all lawsuits filed in the World are in the USA.
Every business in California will be sued at least once during its business life.
25% of all Californians with income over $50,000 will be sued in their lifetime.
Comforting isn’t it. Shakespeare had it right when he said kill all the lawyers.

goodguy
07-20-2015, 02:01 PM
WOW!! Another case of your typical Orange county bullS***... One person screws up and everyone is screwed???! Such bull... Well, good luck keeping the doors open!

iPhish
07-20-2015, 02:05 PM
This is now final, and the lawsuit itself is settled and over with. There are only a handful of insurance companies that cover recreational fishing lakes. We have spoken to all of them.

The lawsuit was just settled on July 14, 2015. It's Case #30-2012-00608186-CU-PO-CJC filed on 10/29/12. Lots of Plaintiffs against Defendants SWD Recreation (ie. Irvine Lake), Serrano Water District, and The Irvine Company! Also, to make note there's ANOTHER LAWSUIT (Personal Injury) currently pending in Court against SWD Recreation (ie. Irvine Lake) that case is #30-2014-00726795-CU-PO-CJC filed on 06/05/14 for JONATHAN WRIGHT's personal injuries related to an accident that happened at Irvine Lake on or about June 9, 2012. Interesting to note, on June 24, 2012 was the drowning and capsized boat incident. Man, June of 2012 was not a good month for Irvine Lake!

Two lawsuits so far..... one settled, one pending! No wonder an insurance company won't touch Irvine Lake with a 10 foot rod. The plot thickens guys!

DarkShadow
07-20-2015, 02:16 PM
Indeed, the other articles did not make it clear if they had sneaked in or not. Still, where does personal responsibility come in? Why must everyone else have to babysit and pay for adult stupid?

Irvine Lake (and management companies) could easily put this question to rest by offering a response, whose question many people have been alluding to in this thread. Of course, if any NDAs were signed after judgement, then perhaps that may be the reason why they are not responding with any detail.

But, in any case, I understand some individuals are already researching this particular court case and hopefully it's not too expensive to get copies of all the paperwork involved. Then everyone can wade through 100s of pages of court dockets to find out the real details that got presented.

zzzfish
07-20-2015, 02:33 PM
This is tragic for both sides. Enough said.

I have a lot of wonderful memories with this lake and will continue to support it till the gate is close or the water run dry.

HawgZWylde
07-20-2015, 03:11 PM
Irvine Lake (and management companies) could easily put this question to rest by offering a response, whose question many people have been alluding to in this thread. Of course, if any NDAs were signed after judgement, then perhaps that may be the reason why they are not responding with any detail.

But, in any case, I understand some individuals are already researching this particular court case and hopefully it's not too expensive to get copies of all the paperwork involved. Then everyone can wade through 100s of pages of court dockets to find out the real details that got presented.


Of course, if any NDAs were signed after judgement, then perhaps that may be the reason why they are not responding with any detail.

This is most likely the case DS. My question now is has precedent been set for this to happen at every lake that allows private boats to launch?

DarkShadow
07-20-2015, 03:38 PM
This is most likely the case DS. My question now is has precedent been set for this to happen at every lake that allows private boats to launch?

I hope not.

Although, the cynic in me says that these larger non-private bodies of water have better lawyers. ;-) (I mean, if what happened here was the case, Pyramid would be getting sued every weekend, with the amount of assery that occurs there.)

Which is why I'm interested in the documentation that I hope I get by the end of the week. I'd rather get it straight from the horse's mouth than get it from the defendant's side. I'd hate to see Irvine not being at fault for anything, but not having the funding to litigate this properly.

HawgZWylde
07-20-2015, 04:27 PM
I hope not.

Although, the cynic in me says that these larger non-private bodies of water have better lawyers. ;-) (I mean, if what happened here was the case, Pyramid would be getting sued every weekend, with the amount of assery that occurs there.)

Which is why I'm interested in the documentation that I hope I get by the end of the week. I'd rather get it straight from the horse's mouth than get it from the defendant's side. I'd hate to see Irvine not being at fault for anything, but not having the funding to litigate this properly.

Agreed DS. If possible keep keep us informed...

chompot
07-20-2015, 06:21 PM
Two lawsuits so far..... one settled, one pending! No wonder an insurance company won't touch Irvine Lake with a 10 foot rod. The plot thickens guys!

My wife is in insurance. She said it sounds pretty simple, as stated above. They had a loss, no one will write them.

DEVOREFLYER
07-20-2015, 07:04 PM
In baseball it's three strikes and your out, in the insurance world it's two strikes and your out.

BlueGillChaser
07-20-2015, 07:53 PM
Okay if a person drowned in a rental they cant sue you guys?

DarkShadow
07-21-2015, 08:50 AM
Okay if a person drowned in a rental they cant sue you guys?

This is America. You can sue anybody for anything. LOL.

(Although I think they did mention in this post or the other one that their insurance policy does cover people in rentals)

Brent
07-21-2015, 09:43 AM
I would say the majority of the people on this board have Conservative leanings!!!! With that being said, what is the Conservative view point on business? Only the strongest should survive!!! Bad business decisions means their OUT OF BUSINESS!!!! Maybe we will get lucky and some one new takes over and solves this problem!!

Just like the big banks on Wall Street right?????????

DEVOREFLYER
07-21-2015, 10:03 AM
You can't fix STUPID, once upon a time in this great land people took personal responsibility and ownership for their actions/decisions. Today when something bad happens it's always the other guys fault and not mine and they must pay. You can't buy a product today without some stupid warning label on it, blame the trial lawyers for that. The average reading comprehension in this country is 8th grade 4th month and I would guess the IQ is no larger than my waist size. You can't fix STUPID but you can make someone else PAY!

In business it's always been the strongest survive, grow your business or die. You only go into business for two reasons: Fun and Profit. If their isn't any Profit it's no Fun!!!

DarkShadow
07-21-2015, 10:15 AM
You can't fix STUPID, once upon a time in this great land people took personal responsibility and ownership for their actions/decisions. Today when something bad happens it's always the other guys fault and not mine and they must pay. You can't buy a product today without some stupid warning label on it, blame the trial lawyers for that. The average reading comprehension in this country is 8th grade 4th month and I would guess the IQ is no larger than my waist size. You can't fix STUPID but you can make someone else PAY!

In business it's always been the strongest survive, grow your business or die. You only go into business for two reasons: Fun and Profit. If their isn't any Profit it's no Fun!!!

Weren't you in litigation consulting?

DEVOREFLYER
07-21-2015, 12:11 PM
Weren't you in litigation consulting?

Yes and I could tell hundreds of war stories. A Civil trial only requires a simple majority from the jury to get an award unlike a Criminal trial that requires a unanimous verdict.

etucker1959
07-21-2015, 12:55 PM
I would say the majority of the people on this board have Conservative leanings!!!! With that being said, what is the Conservative view point on business? Only the strongest should survive!!! Bad business decisions means their OUT OF BUSINESS!!!! Maybe we will get lucky and some one new takes over and solves this problem!!

Just like the big banks on Wall Street right?????????

Too Big to Fail!!!!! lol

DarkShadow
07-21-2015, 01:30 PM
Yes and I could tell hundreds of war stories. A Civil trial only requires a simple majority from the jury to get an award unlike a Criminal trial that requires a unanimous verdict.

So you're dogging a process that allowed you to remain employed in litigation consulting?

"I hate litigation and lawyers, but I consult in it."

Stinkbait
07-21-2015, 09:36 PM
What is with all the haranguing of a private business? Don't you think they evaluated their options if thousands of monthly revenue were at stake? The water district didn't let them keep their lease all these years because they were stupid. Irvine can be a little campy but is a good fishery. They are not denying anyone a wedding cake or anything.

etucker1959
07-21-2015, 10:16 PM
Denying people the use of their own boat is a big thing if you own a boat. Look at DVL or ask the people who had their own boat, how many times did you rent a boat at DVL after the ramp was unusable? The big problem as I see it, they might cut back on the fish plants. If they lose say 15% of their business because of no private boat launching. They might be tempted to save money by planting less or smaller fish. This then causes a domino effect of people catching less fish and not coming back. So then to compensate for having even less money, they further cut back on the amount of fish planted. Causing a negative whirl wind and soon they are no longer profitable and go out of business!!!! THE END!!!!

Stinkbait
07-21-2015, 10:48 PM
I'm no boat owner so I always rent at DVL or Irvine, probly 1-2 times a month average.

The WD aint letting that cash cow go anywhere. The lake goes away, the WD has a huge property requiring maintenance and security making no revenue.

Maybe just maybe, current management gets booted(hope not) as the worst case scenario. The WD puts the concession to bid requiring higher/more insurance and some rule changes and boom off and running. Maybe the new concession has more investors to buy more water to keep the lake full and healthy and Irvine becomes the bass jewl of the OC that Laguna Niquel once was.

Don't know if the water buying part would work since its a drinking water reservoir for local cities. Don't know if a new concession could own water on WD property. I'm sure an agreement could be worked out.

Or God forbid they reduce the entry fee to increase the draw. Yah, I know private boaters are still denied.

seal
07-22-2015, 06:06 AM
I don't see very many of these responses as anything more than venting about a lake that has meant a great deal to some over the years. These concerns will have little impact if any on what is left of their business profitability. But to say that giving honest opinions and concerns about what is occurring and not only the impact on Irvine but the potential impact for other fishery's is "haranguing" is just wrong. I'm sure like many you like the management and the lake itself and don't want it bad mouthed, I get it and understand, but that is not where I'm coming from and I'd say the majority of the responses by far are not coming from that perspective.

Oh and also ignore the political BS some just can't help themselves.

pastorsheldon
07-22-2015, 08:49 AM
Anglers:

To clarify the new policy of no private boats on the lake, three years ago an incident occurred where 2 individuals on an unauthorized boat
drown. A lawsuit was filed against Irvine Lake and as a result, our insurance will not allow the use of private boats. We regret this inconvenience.


Read more on the incident: http://www.ocregister.com/articles/boat-360609-lake-doan.html


Board of Directors,
Irvine Lake

Looks like I will no longer be fishing at Irvine.

etucker1959
07-22-2015, 09:33 AM
Looks like I will no longer be fishing at Irvine.
That's a really good statement!!!! How many people out there who own a boat and love fishing Irvine Lake. Would break down and rent a boat??? Second part of the question, if you would rent a boat, would it be as often (you normally fish twice a month) as you did before. Let me go first to answer that question. I own a tin boat, so on a special occasion like when they stock 10k of catfish, I would rent a boat. But that's it, going for the heck of it, I wouldn't!!!!

5150fishn
07-22-2015, 09:57 AM
Irvine lake has been put in a bad spot and I for one will continue to support the lake just as much as before. I am usually a troller and fish from a kayak and a boat. I will take my daughter more often and fish from shore or a rent a boat. It isn't that big a deal for me and I will continue to support the lake that I have fished for over 20 years and has a great staff that always takes care of us.

Brent
07-22-2015, 11:21 AM
All of this probably won't matter much longer. The way Irvine Company is buying land and building, it'll be private before long anyways.

chompot
07-22-2015, 01:13 PM
All of this probably won't matter much longer. The way Irvine Company is buying land and building, it'll be private before long anyways.

They might have to pry it from our tax paying hands. A lot of the open space through Santiago Canyon is owned by The County of Orange. Irvine company actually owns very little back that way now.

I just installed and new overlay for my Google earth showing property ownership parcels using the most recent assessor data and I was extremely surprised how much of that is county owned.

JAG107
07-22-2015, 03:09 PM
That's a really good statement!!!! How many people out there who own a boat and love fishing Irvine Lake. Would break down and rent a boat??? Second part of the question, if you would rent a boat, would it be as often (you normally fish twice a month) as you did before. Let me go first to answer that question. I own a tin boat, so on a special occasion like when they stock 10k of catfish, I would rent a boat. But that's it, going for the heck of it, I wouldn't!!!!
This is what I'm getting at. I love Irvine, and want nothing more than to continue trolling the heck out of that lake, but I just can't justify spending the extra $50 or whatever each trip and leave my much nicer boat that I'm paying for at home. I'm not trying to trash talk the lake, especially the staff because they truly are top notch, but I just can't sew myself fishing there very often with the new policy. They could realistically lose 10-20% of their business. Not every boat launched is with only 1 or 2 paying anglers, many of them have 3-4+. That's over a hundred bucks, plus the potential sales losses at the tackle shop and Roger's. I wish there was some waiver we could sign like skydivers do, something, anything!

DarkShadow
07-22-2015, 04:28 PM
I wish there was some waiver we could sign like skydivers do, something, anything!

I'm still trying to figure out whether private boaters had to sign a waiver before launching.

Judging from your comment, I guess that means private boaters didn't have to sign waivers before launching.

DEVOREFLYER
07-22-2015, 04:57 PM
Insurance companies have the power to write the rules you have to play by. You either play by their rules or you get canceled or no policy issued/renewed. Specialty liability insurance has a limited number of carriers that write those policies and they can come with high premiums (especially with a loss history) and high deductibles. Generally if you have two claims/losses in a relatively short period you will be canceled or not renewed and getting coverage from any carrier at any price is almost impossible. A waiver is only a speed bump designed to discourage a law suit not unlike the parking lot or car wash disclaimer about not being responsible for damage or loss. A waiver or disclaimer will not prevent a law suit only a judge can make that determination and if it is against public policy (for the good of the public) the suit will continue on.

Your all going to have to be boat renters or boat-less bank trash. Sad for everyone involved it had to come to this. Hope the other private lakes don't have the same insurance carrier or this might become the norm.

Hitts0n
07-22-2015, 05:53 PM
LMFAO @ THESE RESPONCES! I will continue to roll with Roger's café and Irvine Lake thru thick n thin. Less lake lice in my way!

JAG107
07-22-2015, 06:25 PM
I'm still trying to figure out whether private boaters had to sign a waiver before launching.

Judging from your comment, I guess that means private boaters didn't have to sign waivers before launching.

Only SARL/Corona has had me sign a waiver, never Irvine. Although they were doing lifejacket checks in the queue before you got in most days, but that doesn't mean much if you don't put 'em on!

iPhish
07-22-2015, 09:27 PM
All of this probably won't matter much longer. The way Irvine Company is buying land and building, it'll be private before long anyways.

What is this supposed to mean Brent?

Apparently, you've missed all of the posts previously on this thread. The lawsuit that is one of the main reasons for this happening has THE IRVINE COMPANY named as a defendant! Actually, one of its divisions called THE IRVINE LAND COMPANY LLC is named exactly. So either the Irvine Company does in fact OWN the land or at least MANAGES the land.

boomstikit
07-23-2015, 10:33 AM
The cost of rental boats is probably the biggest reason I bought a float tube. Shelling out an additional $55 on top of the entrance fee to fish Irvine is NOT an option. All of a sudden Perris, Vail (coming soon) and the San Diego lakes are starting to look more attractive. Sorry Irvine... when things change I will be back.

volcomape
07-23-2015, 02:21 PM
That's a really good statement!!!! How many people out there who own a boat and love fishing Irvine Lake. Would break down and rent a boat??? Second part of the question, if you would rent a boat, would it be as often (you normally fish twice a month) as you did before. Let me go first to answer that question. I own a tin boat, so on a special occasion like when they stock 10k of catfish, I would rent a boat. But that's it, going for the heck of it, I wouldn't!!!!

I own a boat - I will never go to Irvine again w/ this new policy.
I've been going every weekend for 6 months.
I know people are loyal to Irvine Lake on this board but come on - This lake is no more than a mud hole that at times has decent fishing. No big loss

Catmando
07-25-2015, 09:33 PM
I have a question. What about if you prove that you have your own insurance on your boat? That should release Irvine of any responsibilities. Just a thought. Meeeoouuutttt!

crappiemike
07-26-2015, 01:55 AM
It will change back, the big question
Is when-----



Cm

BentRod
07-26-2015, 06:55 PM
[QUOTE=crappiemike;768052]It will change back, the big question
Is when-----

Hope you are right Cm ! ......

Brent
07-27-2015, 09:11 AM
What is this supposed to mean Brent?

Apparently, you've missed all of the posts previously on this thread. The lawsuit that is one of the main reasons for this happening has THE IRVINE COMPANY named as a defendant! Actually, one of its divisions called THE IRVINE LAND COMPANY LLC is named exactly. So either the Irvine Company does in fact OWN the land or at least MANAGES the land.

Like I said, Irvine Co. is buying land AND building. The fact that they already own the land and now have a reason to make it private and sell it off only makes it seem easier for them, that's all. Nice private, gated lakefront property in OC.

vonfranko
07-27-2015, 02:59 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IIvVRoMghM

georgia_brown
07-27-2015, 04:40 PM
Dang that boat was tiny to be holding 4 people. Hope it does get sold. Chances are better that I'll know someone who lives there than be able to afford to fish there at current prices. Never lived somewhere where almost every good sized lake was privately owned and charged exorbitant fees to fish in.

ZIPPERHEAD
07-27-2015, 07:25 PM
Like I said, Irvine Co. is buying land AND building. The fact that they already own the land and now have a reason to make it private and sell it off only makes it seem easier for them, that's all. Nice private, gated lakefront property in OC.

Donald Bren has no intent to build on land- Or sale land to build homes and develop- Educate yourself before making comments. Good Gawd

etucker1959
07-27-2015, 07:57 PM
Donald Bren has no intent to build on land- Or sale land to build homes and develop- Educate yourself before making comments. Good Gawd
He's not the first person I've heard said on this board, that Irvine Lake a few years back was ALMOST SOLD TO DEVELOPERS. Any else want to jump in here with some details on that one!!!!!!!!

chompot
07-27-2015, 09:01 PM
Forum hearsay.... it just never gets old...

BlueGillChaser
07-28-2015, 09:39 AM
If your boat patrol and see 4 people on a boat that small, its your job to make sure they return safely...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IIvVRoMghM

goodguy
07-28-2015, 09:53 AM
If your boat patrol and see 4 people on a boat that small, its your job to make sure they return safely...

Agreed... There's NO WAY 4 adults should have been allowed on that tiny weak boat. 2 full sized adults males would even be a little much in my opinion. Staff definetely failed on that one. That being said, I miss the days when 4 full grown adults make a bad decision and that's where it ends. Now, the ambulence chasing lawyers have to wet their beak too and ruin it for the rest of us!

Brent
07-28-2015, 12:13 PM
He's not the first person I've heard said on this board, that Irvine Lake a few years back was ALMOST SOLD TO DEVELOPERS. Any else want to jump in here with some details on that one!!!!!!!!

Thank you Tucker.
I'm just saying that it has been mentioned in the years past. Don't get so butt hurt over it Zipperhead. Good Gawd? What does that even mean when someone makes a comment regarding a possible development project?

dixoncider
07-29-2015, 06:19 AM
Agreed... There's NO WAY 4 adults should have been allowed on that tiny weak boat. 2 full sized adults males would even be a little much in my opinion. Staff definetely failed on that one. That being said, I miss the days when 4 full grown adults make a bad decision and that's where it ends. Now, the ambulence chasing lawyers have to wet their beak too and ruin it for the rest of us!
They launched in the dark, on the north side of trout island. Lake patrol saved 2 of the guys.. Its not like they were at the launch ramp blowing up the boat.. Not like they paid the $10 to launch either..

muskyman
07-29-2015, 03:48 PM
Ronson makes a good point, doesn't my insurance cover me on any given lake ? I mean, when I fish bass events, I have to have the min 250K liability, so if you could show someone at the gate - your insurance declaration page - showing your dates of coverage, limits ect - wouldn't this be good enough ? I mean, we do it already with car insurance being the law and all.

etucker1959
07-29-2015, 04:15 PM
Ronson makes a good point, doesn't my insurance cover me on any given lake ? I mean, when I fish bass events, I have to have the min 250K liability, so if you could show someone at the gate - your insurance declaration page - showing your dates of coverage, limits ect - wouldn't this be good enough ? I mean, we do it already with car insurance being the law and all.
Let me play Jail house lawyer. Even though you have really good Insurance on your boat and it's occupants, that still wouldn't stop someone from including Irvine Lake as a co-defendant if one of your passengers drowned and the family sued you. Since Irvine lake no longer has insurance that covers passengers of private boats. That person who is suing you and Irvine Lake could then go after the assets of Irvine Lake if they won their lawsuit. Irvine Lake would never put themselves in that kind of position!!!!

iPhish
07-29-2015, 06:24 PM
Let me play Jail house lawyer. Even though you have really good Insurance on your boat and it's occupants, that still wouldn't stop someone from including Irvine Lake as a co-defendant if one of your passengers drowned and the family sued you. Since Irvine lake no longer has insurance that covers passengers of private boats. That person who is suing you and Irvine Lake could then go after the assets of Irvine Lake if they won their lawsuit. Irvine Lake would never put themselves in that kind of position!!!!

Guys I've already mentioned this earlier in this thread. Why not allow us with good insurance coverage, name Irvine Lake et al. as an ADDITIONAL INSURED on our private boaters insurance coverage.

etucker1959
07-29-2015, 07:00 PM
Guys I've already mentioned this earlier in this thread. Why not allow us with good insurance coverage, name Irvine Lake et al. as an ADDITIONAL INSURED on our private boaters insurance coverage.
I think we need a real Lawyer now!!!!! Would was stated above work?????? Or you just can't prevent anybody from suing anybody if they want too bad enough??????

seal
07-30-2015, 09:20 AM
You guys don't think this has already been discussed by the lake management and Insurance companies? Come on I'm quite certain Irvine has done the due diligence to find a potential insurance and financial workaround for this situation that would not leave the management team in a situation where this could reoccur.

ZIPPERHEAD
07-30-2015, 05:29 PM
I think we need a real Lawyer now!!!!! Would was stated above work?????? Or you just can't prevent anybody from suing anybody if they want too bad enough??????

Because even though your insured they go after deep pockets. Irvine lake would get sued. I used to race motocross at saddleback park in the day same thing happened and park was closed. Irvine won't close but private boats are done for a couple of years anyway.

Catmando
08-02-2015, 02:38 AM
I work in the insurance industry. I will try to see what can be done. I would need to see the judgment, order or the verdict forms if it was a jury trial. Up to you, but you know I will try my best to find you the right insurance.

My question is what about increasing my insurance coverage on my boat. I wonder if we can add some type of ryder to our personal policies that would allow us back on the water. I will look into it all. I hate to see this happen.

There should be a way for boats to qualify to be on the lake. It may disqualify some but save others. Anyway, I will see what I can find out if you want me to. Was there a time frame put on the judgment or is it set in stone forever? Was the decision appealed? We can try to get it overturned if we band together signing a petition and writing the appropriate person in legislature. We can do this people!

Screw work lets fish
08-02-2015, 10:44 AM
What ever happened to being responsible for your own actions?? If you go out on a boat anywhere... ocean, lake, river, mudhole, doughboy swimming pool, bathtub..ect.. there is a risk of drowning. It is no ones Fault. Accidents happen, sometimes because of stupidity sometimes by......well accident. this is not a reason to sue anyone. Whatever happened to these guys sucks I agree but how does it make it Irvine lake or anyone else's fault but their own. Our nation is filled pathetic idiotic people who blame everyone else for their misfortunes in life and never look in the mirror.

Catmando
08-02-2015, 11:13 AM
After 17 years as an expert witness and litigation consultant nothing surprises me anymore. Until we have litigation reform and loser pays nothing will change. The sad and sorry fact is most lawsuits filed are frivolous to some degree or the other. We have legal system where trial lawyers sue everyone under joint and several liability and contributory negligence. Name a half a dozen or more defendants that have insurance and the insurance carriers will settle in a heartbeat. It is legalized extortion. A dead, disfigured or disabled child is the biggest award winners in the legal lotto game and you can't have enough insurance.

It costs on average for an insurance company to go to trial $40,000 and winning for the insurance company is not a sure bet. Better to settle for less than the $40,000 to make it go away. I can’t tell you the number of cases I turned down because they were frivolous or weak and someone else took the case. I have asked other experts why they to such a case and the reply was a paycheck is a paycheck win or lose I still get paid. My moral compass never let me do that and I am sure my wallet suffered for it; however in 17 years I never lost a case or failed to get my clients a settlement. Oh and I slept well at night.

A few legal facts:
96% of all lawsuits filed in the World are in the USA.
Every business in California will be sued at least once during its business life.
25% of all Californians with income over $50,000 will be sued in their lifetime.
Comforting isn’t it. Shakespeare had it right when he said kill all the lawyers.

Hey there. I like the way you see things. I have a few lawsuits going on and one 2 I would like to start. 1 is for legal malpractice and the other is for conspiracy which can end up in winning millions. I just need the right attorney and I need it on a contingency basis. I have a great case and they have deep pockets. If you are interested or know someone in the LA area, please inbox me. Thanks.

Oh, and regarding this case, private boaters have boaters insurance so it shouldn't fall on the lake. It is just like driving a car. The fault seems like it should fall on the owner of the boat and not the lake.

CMD

Catmando
08-02-2015, 11:39 AM
What really sucks is that I store my boat there and that is my main lake. So now I have to pay monthly to store my boat, yet can't put it on the water. Then, I have to pay full price for a rental. Now that just isn't fair. People who store their boats there and pay a monthly fee should at least get free boat rentals or at least a large discount. I will wait a few months to see what happens during trout season but if it isn't figured out, what is the point of having a boat. I might as well sell it and take up a new hobby...lol Now I can only fish tournaments and I have to win in order to make it worth it.

This is like having a car accident and suing the city because it happened on city streets. What is expected then....no cars on city streets?...lol

lowe
08-03-2015, 09:07 PM
My condolences goes out to the Families this is a sad times for Irvine and the private boaters, for Irvine I think the most because I think the lake soon will close shop. Someone earlier mention about the low stocking and drama this was behind the seems and the reason for the drama I think. Irvine use to be my home lake I had great times at Irvine with great people and friends. I am a boat owner and have no need to fish Irvine it's time to cut ties, until this is irons out. When you see staff posting more then the anglers I knew something was going wrong. CM I will never give up my passion give me a pot with water if I know its fish in it I'm dropping my line Lol ..lo
.

DarkShadow
08-04-2015, 03:50 PM
... for Irvine I think the most because I think the lake soon will close shop.

I think at this rate, it's more lucrative to sell the water out right and close the lake, than pay for staffing/insurance/stockings to keep fisherman happy.

It is a business, after all.

WPCBANDIT
08-05-2015, 05:36 AM
Wow I love to float tube this lake and yes feel for the families loss, Do you remember quite a few years when water was 3 foot over spill way and there was a trailer floating in the lake? you guys didnt ban trailers or if someone would drive a truck into the lake on the way to trout island would you ban cars? I always get checked making sure i have life vest on my tube maybe make it a policy you have to wear them not just have them on any water craft (as it should be) I know people will complain about that as well. You have some very loyal fans of your paid lake that dont want to find another lake, rentals I guess are option for trollers the can rent a boat are you guys gonna rent float tubes as well? PLEASE BRING TUBES BACK thats my 2 cents:Big Grin:

chompot
08-05-2015, 07:26 AM
I think at this rate, it's more lucrative to sell the water out right and close the lake, than pay for staffing/insurance/stockings to keep fisherman happy.

It is a business, after all.

I think you are referring to two separate entities there. IRWD and SWD control the water and the lake. Totally separate from the concession who handles the staffing/insurance/stockings. Other than a good public image, I doubt the water districts give two craps about the fishing.

seal
08-05-2015, 08:13 AM
Nobody is getting banned. It is about Insurance, the lake can't Insure themselves against stupid people, they'd go broke along with anybody connected to the management of the lake due to the insanity of this country's litigious society.

Some of these responses are just getting a little silly.