White Seabass, Sportfishing, and Conservation [Archive]

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fish_sauce

11-21-2012, 04:51 PM

jerryG

11-21-2012, 09:05 PM

I fished have fished locally since the mid 70s and the fishing was great back then but WSB were very rare at best. We used to call them heritage fish. We heard the old timers at the time tell stories of catching WSB. We saw the old pictures most of which were in black white but we rarely heard of any being caught by anyone other than commercial gill netters.

I maybe wrong but I believe it was 1989 when a law was passed banning the use of gill nets within 3 miles of any shore which includes islands. We began to see a few sea bass in the counts in 1990 and in March of 1991 I got my first legal (16 lbs at Catalina Is.) and at the time I thought YES!!! Finally and I got me a good size one... LOL A runt by today's standards. Every season it seems the WSB numbers get better with better numbers of BIG FISH. The WSB bites that take place each season these days was unheard of back then.. They are even getting them up the Bay Area it's just amazing. Although it has taken longer to see the effects of the recovery after the gill net black sea bass also seem to have made significant rebound in comparison to the fishery of the late 70's, 80s, and early 90s. Halibut also seem to be abundant but I will say that the halibut bite that used take place each spring in the SM Bay is way off the mark of what it used to be for the sport boats that were turning in counts of 30 halibut or more on a good day. Regardless I believe there as many if not more halibut being caught now then ever. Not to mention more halibut being released.

I am a firm believer in catch and release. If you want to eat fish keep a smaller fish and in my opinion the smaller fish are better eating anyways. Bigger fish seem to have tougher meat.. Unless we're talking BIG Tuna and Yellows then all bets are off. Also take in to consideration that only the strongest, smartest, healthiest, and fastest growing fish will become BIG FISH.. These are the fish that need to be released because they lay more eggs and make more babies but more importantly they will pass on their genes on to their hatch and chances are their babies will grow to be big and healthy just like Mom...

Years ago a good friend of mine used to run one of the local sport boats and I would meet up with him after work at the boat to fish the dock. We were catching some good fish and releasing everything we caught. It was like our own little private fishery. One day we decided to clip the a small section off the top of the tail of every fish we caught. We wanted to see if we were catching any of the same fish twice and what we found was that within a month we rarely ever catch any fish that didn't have a clipped tail. If we had kept all our fish we would never catch anything. Catch and release works. Nothing wrong with keeping a fish to eat but a responsible way to go about it my opinion is to let the bigger fish go, also take in to consideration that the limit laws are very generous so take only what you need and save the rest for another day. In other words limit your take don't take your limit. Some may disagree but I do support the new bass limits. It could have been better if it included a slot limit to protect big fish.

There are environmental extremists who will argue this fact but make no doubt about it our fisheries are healthy.There are no truths stronger to ones belief than the truths that come as a consequence of personal observation and experience. There is nothing the anti fishing groups can say that would make me believe otherwise. Its nothing more than hype.

JerryG

PONTOON

11-21-2012, 09:45 PM

Andrew,

I'm afraid I really don't have much information that would help you with your paper but I'm sure that with the knowledge and talent that is on this board you will get plenty of good opinions. I wish you all the luck in the world with your paper and your education.:Cool:

I do, however, want to commend you for having your priorities in the right order. You will only be in school a short while and the more you put into your education the more you will eventually get out of it and believe me there will be plenty of time to fish!:Thumbs Up::Thumbs Up:

fish_sauce

11-21-2012, 10:04 PM

Terry:

Thanks for the words of encouragement! It took me a very, very long time to realize the importance of a proper education. I am eternally grateful for being lucky enough to live in a nation that grants "second chances" for self-empowerment.

Jerry:

Thank you for the insights!

I'm very interested in that part about the "heritage fish," meaning, why was it labeled as such? Was it something that reflected the predominant belief back then that WSB (like the BSB's) were a thing of the past?

An extension to that question would be: by what other nick names/jargon/term is it called, and why? (i.e. the grey ghost?)

Also, i want to make a note to those who may read this thread: don't be afraid to repeat, defend, or challenge a reply. My intention, i hope, is to get a feel for the different attitudes and opinions on the subject (through a fisherman's perspective).

Insights from old salts who've witness for themselves the trends (if there are any) that have taken place throughout the decades are ESPECIALLY valuable, and I highly encourage it! :Smile:

Andrew

jerryG

11-22-2012, 01:45 AM

We called them heritage fish in the 70s and 80s because at the time catching WSB was a thing of the past. They were practically none-existent back then. Perhaps Mikey (Exfactor) will chime he should have a lot of good insight.

JerryG

DockRat

11-22-2012, 07:19 AM

1) Do you think that the local white seabass population has made a "successful" and sustainable rebound, and why?
Yes, inshore gill net ban.

2) Are there any new measures that we should take, (or measures we should abolish) with regards to the current DFG regulations? (such as a size slot limit? a take limit? a Catch-N-Release only policy?)
The limit should be 1 year round.

When the tankers come through, guys go out and get more fish than they need.
Then they go back for more the next day.
This topic got me banned from a website, I called out a moderator who was going out multi times a week. That guy got about 500 lbs of WSB in a month, asked him what is he doing with all that meat ? Nobody can eat that much, giving it away ? Yah OK, it is legal to give away but is it ethical ? Same with lobster, many get more than they can eat. Do they sell it ? Give it away ?
I don't know, they will never talk about it.

3) With regards to white seabass population, what do you think, is the greatest threat? (is it commercial fishery? is it pollution? is it sport fishing?)
Mexican Seiners ? Squid population ? Pollution maybe. When you have a population increase like in LA you have millions of people craping and peeing everyday. Is all that treated human waste good for the ocean ? Millions of cars = tons of brake dust, exhaust, diesel dust lands on the ground, then the rain comes and sends it to the ocean. Home and golf courses using pesticides and fertilizers, everything runs off with the rains.

4) Are you optimistic (or pessimistic) about the future of sport fishing with regards to "scientific" reports about declining populations, and why?
Pess, they don't have the money to due proper studies.
Too many tree huggers use BS science to change fishing and convince politicians.

5) (Lastly) What are your thoughts on the practice of catch-and-release? (i.e. is it pointless? is it ethical? is it necessary?)
Andrew

C&R is good. Fishing for pictures ( CPR ) can kill fish even when released.
Guys lip gaffing a black sea bass, let it flop on the deck (removes slime) then pick it up by the gills
JUST FOR A PIC ? Not good. Same with Halibut, WSB or other fish.

Guys get that warm and fuzzy feeling by claiming to be a C&R fisherman. Most guys do feel good when they watch that fish swim away, I do. But how is the health of that fish ?
If one really cares about a good release then a fast unhooking should be done.
With a pair of needle nose pliers or unhooking device a release can even be done with the fish in the water. Do beach landed WSB that get dragged up on the sand to flop till they calm down then laid out with a tape, then held up for a pic survive ok ? Who knows ? Nobody unless they are tagged and caught later. I will tell you that I've witnessed several seals chewing up WSB and Halibut.

4 last WSB topics;

Seals;
Seals are a problem. There are too many seals. Many WSB are lost to seals.
The overpopulation of these beasts is really hurting the Calif fishery. They eat bait that WSB and halibut eat. This may sound mean but I hope we have a huge seal die-off.
We could lose 1/4 million of these dogs. Go to Santa Barbara island and you'll see 50' thick of them onshore all they way around the island. These things are everywhere, eating and eating.
10 to 30 pounds of fish per day, bring back seal hunting. We need more Big White Sharks.

Kelp;
Kelp is necessary and WSB habitat, another topic fishermen don't talk about.
Too many sea urchins. Lack of predators. Gone are the So Cal Otters, Less Big Lobsters,
Big Sheephead that eat sea urchins.
My old boss Don Siverts ( Undersea Graphics ) said in the 1940's 50's they would not grab lobster under 5 lbs. Hoopnetters now report many clickers (lobster too short for the gauge).
I know that Palos Verdes has way too many sea urchins that eat the kelp root. I went on a Dive N Surf urchin smashing party in the 70's. Rows of divers would space out and smash them with hammers, later some said this only released eggs and it was a failure ? I don't think so, there was tons of perch and others eating leftovers. So many small sheephead taken by fishermen, lack of big ones that eat urchins. 1/2 to 3/4 of the So Cal beds are gone.

Horseshoe Kelp off Long Beach HAS NO KELP ! Deep water kelp has not come back.
One old timer reported a big thick kelp bed off Seal Beach. One day a old style drum roller kelp harvester came through and pulled it all up. IT NEVER CAME BACK. Another big kelp bed gone.
Nowadays they cut it with kelpcutter boats that do not damage the roots.

Read more on kelp below; No replies on the kelp/sheephead topic ?
http://fishingnetwork.net/forum4/showthread.php?68346-Dfg-new-reg
Do fishermen care ? They should. Call me a KELPHUGGER, Lol.

The Internet; We love it. But is it good ?
Too much info feeding fishermen and anti fishing groups. Some guy in the Inland Empire or Sacramento has almost as much info at his fingertips as a fisherman that lives in the harbor.
Giving up locations can help deplete a fishery too and help bring anti fishing observers.
DR :My Two Cents:

fish_sauce

11-22-2012, 07:47 AM

Thanks for the input, DR

Andrew

Geraldlim

11-22-2012, 08:16 AM

Since the nearshore gill net ban, many more and bigger WSB have been seen by the freedive community, and in many more areas than before.
The current spearfishing 93 lb world record taken by my team mate spearfishing legend Bill Ernst a couple of years back which SMASHED the previous world record set before the gill net ban by 13 lbs:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y208/geraldlim/Fishing/CountyLine934WSB.jpg

jerryG

11-22-2012, 10:42 AM

They are called grey ghosts because they are known for feeding during the early morning grey light. DOC is right about there being a lot of false science being released in recent years by people claiming to be from the science community. Not all science is false but any science that was PAID FOR or is affiliated with the Packard Foundation is nothing more than propaganda provided to sway the masses in to believing that their cause is for the benefit of the environment much like they did with the Marine Life PRIVATIZATION Act. The recovery of the WSB fishery has been a tremendous success and should serve as an example of what can be achieved through good fishery management. The recovery process has benefited from the involvement and strong support it has received from the sport fishing community.

JerryG

bachiboy

11-22-2012, 12:11 PM

I had a similar experience as Jerry. Back in the 90s, I landed 22lb. seabass from a sportboat at Catalina. There were two caught on that trip and that was a rare feat for that day and age. Now, guys go to Catalina with high hopes of more and bigger WSB. The gillnet ban has been an incredible boost to the marine life...not just the WSB. I feel that the hatchery projects have also been a tremendous help, though not as significant as the gillnet ban. There are valid arguments for both sides of the coin as far as limits go. I for one don't feel like paying for an overnight trip to the islands when the limit is one seabass and I don't think that sport fisherman are the culprits in the demise of the populations, but I also don't mind the limit restriction for the fact that it might help sustain the populations of the future. Hypocritical, maybe, but like I said, I can see both sides of the coin. I think the subject matter should be viewed from all sides, not just the radical-blind MLPA freaks' view of the world. The pollution of coastal waters I feel is a greater enemy to the environment than a sport fisherman could ever be, but despite all of the off-colored water off our coast, the seabass and squid don't seem to mind the sludge. It's hard to say with any real certainty the effects that it all has...again, my views are strictly opinion. Either way, like Jerry said, the sport fishing community has been incredibly supportive of the recovery process and NO ONE wants the WSB to thrive more that us.

exfactor

11-22-2012, 10:29 PM

Call me, there's too much information you want for me to answer all of your ? As to the 70's, i caught many back then at the Coronado's Islands, there was a commercial jug fishing fleet, and i saw hundreds caught then. i will give you an interview on the phone

smokehound

11-22-2012, 10:42 PM

Slot limits for sure!

I want to see this for ALL marine sportfish!

DockRat

11-23-2012, 06:46 AM

Slot limits for sure!

I want to see this for ALL marine sportfish!
That's, crazy. Make it like a big book ? F that.
Do you want to make it like the ' Understanding Women ' book below ?

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o493/LyssaLoo62/obsessed%20nervous%20absolute%2077/giantbook-absolute.jpg

Wingnut

11-23-2012, 09:48 AM

I fished have fished locally since the mid 70s and the fishing was great back then but WSB were very rare at best. We used to call them heritage fish. We heard the old timers at the time tell stories of catching WSB. We saw the old pictures most of which were in black white but we rarely heard of any being caught by anyone other than commercial gill netters.

I maybe wrong but I believe it was 1989 when a law was passed banning the use of gill nets within 3 miles of any shore which includes islands. We began to see a few sea bass in the counts in 1990 and in March of 1991 I got my first legal (16 lbs at Catalina Is.) and at the time I thought YES!!! Finally and I got me a good size one... LOL A runt by today's standards. Every season it seems the WSB numbers get better with better numbers of BIG FISH. The WSB bites that take place each season these days was unheard of back then.. They are even getting them up the Bay Area it's just amazing. Although it has taken longer to see the effects of the recovery after the gill net black sea bass also seem to have made significant rebound in comparison to the fishery of the late 70's, 80s, and early 90s. Halibut also seem to be abundant but I will say that the halibut bite that used take place each spring in the SM Bay is way off the mark of what it used to be for the sport boats that were turning in counts of 30 halibut or more on a good day. Regardless I believe there as many if not more halibut being caught now then ever. Not to mention more halibut being released.

I am a firm believer in catch and release. If you want to eat fish keep a smaller fish and in my opinion the smaller fish are better eating anyways. Bigger fish seem to have tougher meat.. Unless we're talking BIG Tuna and Yellows then all bets are off. Also take in to consideration that only the strongest, smartest, healthiest, and fastest growing fish will become BIG FISH.. These are the fish that need to be released because they lay more eggs and make more babies but more importantly they will pass on their genes on to their hatch and chances are their babies will grow to be big and healthy just like Mom...

Years ago a good friend of mine used to run one of the local sport boats and I would meet up with him after work at the boat to fish the dock. We were catching some good fish and releasing everything we caught. It was like our own little private fishery. One day we decided to clip the a small section off the top of the tail of every fish we caught. We wanted to see if we were catching any of the same fish twice and what we found was that within a month we rarely ever catch any fish that didn't have a clipped tail. If we had kept all our fish we would never catch anything. Catch and release works. Nothing wrong with keeping a fish to eat but a responsible way to go about it my opinion is to let the bigger fish go, also take in to consideration that the limit laws are very generous so take only what you need and save the rest for another day. In other words limit your take don't take your limit. Some may disagree but I do support the new bass limits. It could have been better if it included a slot limit to protect big fish.

There are environmental extremists who will argue this fact but make no doubt about it our fisheries are healthy.There are no truths stronger to ones belief than the truths that come as consequence of personal observation and experience and there is nothing the anti fishing groups can say that would make me believe otherwise. Its nothing more than hype.

JerryG

You're a wealth of knowledge and information Jerry. :Thumbs Up:

Andrew, like I suggested on my text... go take a tour of the White Sea Bass Hatchery on Tamarack in Carlsbad. Lots of great information there! :Big Grin:

And definitely give Mikey a call. :Wink:

Which Way Out

11-23-2012, 10:08 PM

Andrew, good luck buddy on your quest.

I for one am a rather new coastal transplant so my history of the WSB would only go back to my childhood when we ate them at a restaurant in Newport Beach back in the 60's. To this day my favorite tasting fish of all time. For that reason alone I can see why people hunt them.

The sport of catching WSB is more of a wait and see. Sure you need to be in the right location at the right time and you can improve your odds by knowing the water well. The fight itself is quite predictable IMO, but heck I could be wrong, I have only caught 9 in my life. Surly not a Bluefin fight that's for sure. To me it's more about the quest/Sport. Don't get me wrong I still take fish home to eat. I am blessed with a wife that tells me to go fish....I know it's pretty cool.
I think with sound game management of any species and the help of the hatchery's has helped tremendously to the recovery of the local WSB population not mention to the ban on the gill nets.

Do the Wardens need to keep a closer on eye on the commercial boats? You Bet. Not all of them are the huge boats we think of. I hear of guys hitting the same hot spot day after day and wonder what is going on. It could all be legit for all I know, but that's why when a hot bite is going off in a given spot the FG really needs to be focused on what is happening.
I for one love to do the CPR and have been for many years. At least there is a chance the fish will survive if cared for when landing it.

Getting tired now.:Tired: Been moving for the past 2 days.

WWO

murrieta angler

11-28-2012, 05:20 PM

Hi everyone! I apologize for my recent M.I.A. status from the boards. I've been trying to crawl out of a deep hole of academic term papers and exams and such, so I hope this thread finds you and yours in good health and excellent fishing spirit!

Now, to get down to business...I NEED HELP!

I'm writing a research paper on the history of the white seabass population with regards to the commercial fishery, recreational fishing, and conservation efforts. While i'm still in the process of pulling together information and ideas, I want to get a general consensus as to what the sports/recreational fishing community think when we talk about the local white seabass population, and their opinions or comments on current conservation efforts. If you could contribute some thoughts, opinions, facts, anecdotes, or even a fishing story that somehow involves a white seabass, I'd love to hear it!

Here are some of the questions I have, feel free to respond to all, or any of them:

1) Do you think that the local white seabass population has made a "successful" and sustainable rebound, and why?

I can't really respond to this one Andrew.
I just caught my first, 3 seasons ago... :Neutral:

2) Are there any new measures that we should take, (or measures we should abolish) with regards to the current DFG regulations? (such as a size slot limit? a take limit? a Catch-N-Release only policy?)
I think things are fine just the way they are.

The population in the surf has definately increased in just the 3 years that I've been keeping track of.
Checking out the local fisheries down here, they seem plentiful and in good shape.

3) With regards to white seabass population, what do you think, is the greatest threat? (is it commercial fishery? is it pollution? is it sport fishing?)

That's a hard one, but I think it would have to be the commercial side of it.
I know for a fact, guys who catch limits and then head out the next day for more and so on...:Rolls Eyes:

4) Are you optimistic (or pessimistic) about the future of sport fishing with regards to "scientific" reports about declining populations, and why?

I've never been one to agree with most scientific data. There's just to much contradiction between both sides of the issues.

5) (Lastly) What are your thoughts on the practice of catch-and-release? (i.e. is it pointless? is it ethical? is it necessary?)

This is a tough one!
The law says it's okay to keep the legal size fish.
But how do you know the size, of a close legal, if you don't take it out and measure it?
I agree that minimal contact is a must, but when you have to get the fish off, and your hands are full, it's hard to do in the water.

To me, common sense prevails most of the time.
But not all people use it...:mad:

Sorry I can't give you more info, but there are others who can...:Smile:
I'll put up some pictures in a bit.

Robert
<><

Arthur (Wingnut), Mike (bones), Robert, (Murrieta Angler), Jerry (JerryG), Johnathan (Toads)---and the rest SWAT--I really need your input on this one, if you dont' have time to respond, maybe send a picture or two of the biggest white seabass you've caught on the surf or kayak? FNN crashed a while back, so i can't access the older posts with nice pictures. Thankyou fellas!

Any input would be much appreciated! :Wink::Cool:

Andrew

I hope this shows up?!?

murrieta angler

11-28-2012, 05:33 PM

Here's a few pics.
The last pic was my first ever. Boat or surf.

http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae255/gudgersfishing/Mobile%20Uploads/image-178.jpg

http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae255/gudgersfishing/Mobile%20Uploads/image-153.jpg

http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae255/gudgersfishing/Mobile%20Uploads/image-73.jpg

http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/ae255/gudgersfishing/21F743A6.jpg