Prop 30

[Caliyak]

I'm not aware if this prop has been discussed and beat to death but here is your chance.
Your thoughts.

[Natural Lefty]

I am all for it, and I would be even if I weren't a teacher. Our schools have taken too many hits over the years, and education is the basis of a good economy, an enlightened public and a knowledgable electorate. I have seen first-hand the effects of our poor school funding here in California, as a community college teacher. We have had many classes cut and some people have lost their jobs. (Now, how is that good for an economic recovery and job growth?) I have seen reports and heard first hand reports of how parents and teachers -- those who can afford it -- have been buying books, computers and other equipment on their own, that the schools should be paying for.

By the way, vote no on 32. It's a trick being sponsored by superpacs.

[DEVOREFLYER]

No on 30, yes on 32, no on 38 and no on any bond issues. Money will not solve the problem only REFORM will. Use Google to see all of the surveys and stats on failing performance of students in relation to increased money over the years. They are in opposite directions, it’s a fact. Parents should be given vouchers and seek out what best fits their child’s needs. We were sold a bill of goods on the Lotto and Indian Gaming also.

Parochial and private schools outperform public schools in every category. Having spent a number of years as a walk on coach in the public school system I have seen it all, the good the bad and the very very ugly. The dirty little secret in High School sports is the recruiting done by parochial schools to get great athletes from the lower socio economic areas into their school athletic program. These students cannot afford the tuition but benefactors always come up with the money. Oh and these minority student thrive in the new environment and most go on to college.

School failure is not about a lack of money it’s about a lack of leadership, lack of reform and lack of parental interest/support. Solve those issues first and then get back to me about the money issue!!!

[Skyler]

Ah yes, the old ' throw money at the problem until it goes away' tactic. Way to think outside the box. Our teachers are already paid the highest in the nation, yet we have the lowest test scores and highest drop out rates. Money isn't the issue. I doubt buying the school a box of ipads and a extra field trip a year will change that. The parents need to take an active role in their kids' education for an improvements to be seen. Of course they'll have to actually put down the crack pipe and acknowledge the punks' existence first.

[DarkShadow]

The parents need to take an active role in their kids' education for an improvements to be seen.

POPPYCOCK!!

I thought that's what schools and role models like football players and rappers were for.

[etucker1959]

Ah yes, the old ' throw money at the problem until it goes away' tactic. Way to think outside the box. Our teachers are already paid the highest in the nation, yet we have the lowest test scores and highest drop out rates. Money isn't the issue. I doubt buying the school a box of ipads and a extra field trip a year will change that. The parents need to take an active role in their kids' education for an improvements to be seen. Of course they'll have to actually put down the crack pipe and acknowledge the punks' existence first.
Here's a thought, take more money away from schools and watch the results. How many people think that the test scores will actually go up? Don't be afraid to raise your hands on that one.

[etucker1959]

If your a liberal don't bother to read the propositions, I'll tell you how to vote. No on 32, Yes on everything else.

[Natural Lefty]

Etucker, actually, I heard a lady go over the propositions on a liberal radio station, and she only recommended voting yes on about half of them. I haven't been over them that thoroughly yet myself, but her analysis seemed reasonable and she is the head of a liberal group. I am not sure if you are being sarcastic or what with your previous reply.

Devore Flyer, one of the problems with your post, you suggested yourself when you said that private schools recruit high school athletes and pay their tuitions. There actually isn't much difference in performance between private and public schools, and what there is, is attributable to the fact that private schools are able to attract a higher caliber of students in the first place. Thus, it's the students, not the teachers. As any teacher can tell you, anybody can get great results with a room full of Harvard students, but the challenge is to teach something worthwhile to kids who aren't into school, whose parents aren't into school and aren't well educate themselves.

Second, "bad teachers" are rare. Teachers are doing a better job under the circumstances than you give them credit for, and they certainly aren't paid very well to do their job, regardless of the relative ranking of California teachers (where the cost of living is higher than in most places). The educational curriculum has changed over time; it must evolve to keep up with technology and society. I would say that is a kind of reform. There are also many researchers studying what teaching techniques work, and working on implementing them. Thus, I find vague references to "reform" of the educational system particularly unimpressive. What we really need is a major change in our culture. We need to value education the way that Asians do, rather than derogating it the way that too many Americans do. Then, our schools would get excellent results. But without adequate funding, they can never improve. Do you really expect that schools will do better with less money?

And yes, Skyler, money is the problem. It is directly traceable to Prop. 13, and several documentaries and invstigative articles have done so. Ever since Prop. 13 passed, funding for schools has diminished, and consequently, California's public schools have deteriorated.

[Lady Quagga]

This upcoming election has several poorly-drafted propositions. It's unfortunate, because I might have voted Yes on a couple of others if they hadn't tried to inject pet projects or other consumer-unfriendly clauses. At any rate, here is how I am voting:

30 No
31 No
32 No
33 No
34 No (with reservations)
35 Yes
36 Yes
37 No
38 No
39 No (with reservations)
40 Yes

[Natural Lefty]

Why are you voting no on numbers 30 and 38, Lady Quagga? I would expect you to vote yes on 30, at least, given how you are standing up for liberals on this site. I heard that 38 would tax people with incomes as low as $7000 for educational funding, so I not sure how I will vote on that one.

[DEVOREFLYER]

Well I guess all libs ain't sheep after all. Well I'll be damned. Nice that you can think for yourself quagga. I'll be damned.

37505

[Lady Quagga]

Why are you voting no on numbers 30 and 38, Lady Quagga? I would expect you to vote yes on 30, at least, given how you are standing up for liberals on this site. I heard that 38 would tax people with incomes as low as $7000 for educational funding, so I not sure how I will vote on that one.

Anyone who has bothered to read my opinions knows that I do not identify myself as a conservative or a liberal.

In my opinion, Prop. 30 should have been written as two separate initiatives - but that's beside the point. At best, it postpones what really needs to happen - which is a thorough examination and overhaul of the state's budget.

I am a strong supporter of public schools and educators. I believe we need a serious reform of our state's public education system. Prop. 38 throws money at the problem without any sort of reform.

[DEVOREFLYER]

Wow, quagga I am still in agreement with ya on this, imagine that. What a shock, just shocked.

[City Dad]

Education is for suckers!!! Right now LAUSD has class sizes up around 30 per room - LET'S shoot for 50!!! Kids are small, they'll fit..

[Lady Quagga]

Education is for suckers!!! Right now LAUSD has class sizes up around 30 per room - LET'S shoot for 50!!! Kids are small, they'll fit..

Damn you CD, next you'll be trying to steal my classroom bleachers idea....

[DockRat]

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o94/sportsdame/Emoticons/icon_smile_disapprove_jumbo.gif

PROP 30

TEMPORARY TAXES TO FUND EDUCATION.
GUARANTEED LOCAL PUBLIC SAFETY FUNDING.
INITIATIVE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT.
SUMMARY
Put on the Ballot by Petition Signatures

Increases taxes on earnings over $250,000 for seven years and sales taxes by ¼ cent for four years, to fund schools. Guarantees public safety realignment funding. Fiscal Impact: Increased state tax revenues through 2018–19, averaging about $6 billion annually over the next few years. Revenues available for funding state budget. In 2012–13, planned spending reductions, primarily to education programs, would not occur.
WHAT YOUR VOTE MEANS

YES A YES vote on this measure means: The state would increase personal income taxes on high-income taxpayers for seven years and sales taxes for four years. The new tax revenues would be available to fund programs in the state budget.

NO A NO vote on this measure means: The state would not increase personal income taxes or sales taxes. State spending reductions, primarily to education programs, would take effect in 2012–13.
ARGUMENTS

PRO After years of cuts to schools and public safety, it’s time to take a stand. Prop. 30 asks the wealthiest to temporarily pay more to prevent deep school cuts, provide billions in new education funding, guarantee local public safety and help balance the state budget. Learn more at YesOnProp30.com.

CON NO on 30—$50 billion in higher sales and income taxes, but no guarantee of additional money for schools. Prop. 30 doesn’t reform schools, pensions or cut waste and bureaucracy. We’ll never know where the money really goes. Educators, small businesses and taxpayer groups say NO on 30.

[etucker1959]

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o94/sportsdame/Emoticons/icon_smile_disapprove_jumbo.gif

PROP 30

TEMPORARY TAXES TO FUND EDUCATION.
GUARANTEED LOCAL PUBLIC SAFETY FUNDING.
INITIATIVE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT.
SUMMARY
Put on the Ballot by Petition Signatures

Increases taxes on earnings over $250,000 for seven years and sales taxes by ¼ cent for four years, to fund schools. Guarantees public safety realignment funding. Fiscal Impact: Increased state tax revenues through 2018–19, averaging about $6 billion annually over the next few years. Revenues available for funding state budget. In 2012–13, planned spending reductions, primarily to education programs, would not occur.
WHAT YOUR VOTE MEANS

YES A YES vote on this measure means: The state would increase personal income taxes on high-income taxpayers for seven years and sales taxes for four years. The new tax revenues would be available to fund programs in the state budget.

NO A NO vote on this measure means: The state would not increase personal income taxes or sales taxes. State spending reductions, primarily to education programs, would take effect in 2012–13.
ARGUMENTS

PRO After years of cuts to schools and public safety, it’s time to take a stand. Prop. 30 asks the wealthiest to temporarily pay more to prevent deep school cuts, provide billions in new education funding, guarantee local public safety and help balance the state budget. Learn more at YesOnProp30.com.

CON NO on 30—$50 billion in higher sales and income taxes, but no guarantee of additional money for schools. Prop. 30 doesn’t reform schools, pensions or cut waste and bureaucracy. We’ll never know where the money really goes. Educators, small businesses and taxpayer groups say NO on 30.

Good job DocRat!!!!! Read it for yourself, which arugment makes more sense to you the reader.

[etucker1959]

Etucker, actually, I heard a lady go over the propositions on a liberal radio station, and she only recommended voting yes on about half of them. I haven't been over them that thoroughly yet myself, but her analysis seemed reasonable and she is the head of a liberal group. I am not sure if you are being sarcastic or what with your previous reply.

Devore Flyer, one of the problems with your post, you suggested yourself when you said that private schools recruit high school athletes and pay their tuitions. There actually isn't much difference in performance between private and public schools, and what there is, is attributable to the fact that private schools are able to attract a higher caliber of students in the first place. Thus, it's the students, not the teachers. As any teacher can tell you, anybody can get great results with a room full of Harvard students, but the challenge is to teach something worthwhile to kids who aren't into school, whose parents aren't into school and aren't well educate themselves.

Second, "bad teachers" are rare. Teachers are doing a better job under the circumstances than you give them credit for, and they certainly aren't paid very well to do their job, regardless of the relative ranking of California teachers (where the cost of living is higher than in most places). The educational curriculum has changed over time; it must evolve to keep up with technology and society. I would say that is a kind of reform. There are also many researchers studying what teaching techniques work, and working on implementing them. Thus, I find vague references to "reform" of the educational system particularly unimpressive. What we really need is a major change in our culture. We need to value education the way that Asians do, rather than derogating it the way that too many Americans do. Then, our schools would get excellent results. But without adequate funding, they can never improve. Do you really expect that schools will do better with less money?

And yes, Skyler, money is the problem. It is directly traceable to Prop. 13, and several documentaries and invstigative articles have done so. Ever since Prop. 13 passed, funding for schools has diminished, and consequently, California's public schools have deteriorated.

I was being sarcastic, because most tight wad Republicans vote no on everything if it cost them one single dime. By the way nice response!!!!!

[City Dad]

!@#$%^&* you CD, next you'll be trying to steal my classroom bleachers idea....

Good thinkers think... great thinkers steal.

Ever see "Waiting for Superman"? I think it's almost as informative on the subject of public education as this thread.

If anyone is sincerely interested in the topic of our failing school system check it out (sorry, no nudity.)

[Skyler]

Why is it that our scores were so great back in the 80's, when all we had was a teacher and some text books? We didn't have half the funding then under Reagan. Yet our literacy rates were higher, drop out rates lower, and overall test scores were better. It's not money that makes a kid learn. It is a genuine desire to learn. Throw all the money you want at the situation. It won't matter when you are letting an xbox raise your kid.

[DockRat]

It won't matter when you are letting an xbox raise your kid.
X2
Are video games a hobby ? LMAO
Kids now a days can't even change a tire on a bike.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYXw-HhNw_U

[Natural Lefty]

Well, let me tell all of you about my personal situation and that of my colleagues. We have had massive numbers of classes cancelled at the community college where I teach over the past couple of years. This is due to lack of funding, in other words, not enough money to pay the instructors. The classes we do have, are overcrowded. We have far more students clamoring for classes than we have room for. I have been routinely overenrolling my classes, and I think many other instrauctors do, too, but then I found out that doing so is against the rules when a student complained at the beginning of this semester. Our classes are also cancelled if they are not full, so they are supposed to have exactly the number of students that can fit in the room, no less, no more. It's getting pretty ridiculous. If students don't have classes, it cannot help but detract from education. This is not a matter of throwing money at the problem, whatever that means; it's a matter of having classes or not having classes.

Lady Quagga, your idea of having 2 propositions instead of prop. 30 is intriguing. I would like to hear what they would be. We may be more in agreement than I had thought, even with Devore Flyer, but meanwhile, we need something to prevent classes, programs, or even schools from being shut down. The rumor -- which is probably true -- at my school is that the entire winter session will be cancelled if neither prop. 30 nor prop. 38 passes. The winter session is in january and february, in between the fall and spring semesters.

ETucker, that's what I thought you meant, but I wasn't sure. Conservatives definitely tend to vote no religiously on anything that might cost even a dime. Also, people tend to vote no on propositions that they don't understand, which is understandable. Nonetheless, a lot of propositions pass. I need to study the propositions more myself before I vote. I know more about a few of them, like 30, 32, and 38, but not the others.

[Lady Quagga]

Lady Quagga, your idea of having 2 propositions instead of prop. 30 is intriguing. I would like to hear what they would be.

Nothing extraordinary. Prop. 30 proposes two tax increases, one for the state sales tax, one for income tax. In my opinion, they should have been proposed in separate ballot initiatives.

[Natural Lefty]

Okay, I understand, but the taxes weren't proposed separately, and who knows when that would have happened if no one had written prop. 30?

[etucker1959]

Iv'e always felt education is the best thing you could spend your money on. So when people want to go as cheap as possible on education, they really don't see the big picture. I'll give you my best example of why I think the tight wad Republicans are really out to lunch. Their number one biggest complaint in the world of wasteful government spending is on WELFARE. So what do you think is the number one thing you could do to help prevent welfare? I'll give you a hint, it's what we have been talking about. Yep you guessed it EDUCATION. So how does this make any sense at all, to complain about spending money on the best CURE for your number one complaint in the world.

[DarkShadow]

Iv'e always felt education is the best thing you could spend your money on.

etucker1959,

Both my parents are now retired ex-employees of a very large unified school district.

If you saw the amount of waste that occurs on a daily basis, you'd feel a bit different about the statement you made. Your statement is based on the assumption that 100% of the money spent on education actually goes towards that. You can't throw money at a system that is flawed, and expect it to fix itself.

[DEVOREFLYER]

LIST OF STATE OF CALIFORNIA AGENCIES:

The reason California is broke and will remain broke.
Cut a number of these and then get back to me about me refusing to spend another dime of my money, good Gawd over 500 agencys and we can't cut or eliminate some to save education. Give me a "F'n" break!!!!!
Nanny state at it's finest and it's a look where 0bummer want's to take the USA. Not one Damn red cent more until change and reform!!!!!!

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•Center for California Studies
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•Learn California
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•Little Hoover Commission (on California State Government Organization and Economy)
•Medical Board of California
•Medi-Cal
•Osteopathic Medical Board of California
•Physical Therapy Board of California
•Regents of the University of California
•San Diego State University
•San Francisco State University
•San Jose State University
•Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy
•State Bar of California
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•Teach California
•University of California
•University of California, Berkeley
•University of California, Davis
•University of California, Hastings College of the Law
•University of California, Irv ine
•University of California, Los Angeles
•University of California, Merced
•University of California, Riverside
•University of California, San Diego
•University of California, San Francisco
•University of California, Santa Barbara
•University of California, Santa Cruz
•Veterans Home of California

This, and all the pensions that go along with them! Any questions?

[Lady Quagga]

LIST OF STATE OF CALIFORNIA AGENCIES


http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/021/503/tldr_trollcat.jpg?1318992465

....and I bet you didn't, either!

[City Dad]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/021/503/tldr_trollcat.jpg?1318992465

....and I bet you didn't, either!


Yeah, but "California Acupuncture Board" is right up there near the top. That one musta really peeved some folks...

[Skyler]

etucker1959,

Both my parents are now retired ex-employees of a very large unified school district.

If you saw the amount of waste that occurs on a daily basis, you'd feel a bit different about the statement you made. Your statement is based on the assumption that 100% of the money spent on education actually goes towards that. You can't throw money at a system that is flawed, and expect it to fix itself.

This. My mother, grandmother, grandfather, mother-in-law, sister-in-law, late grandmother-in-law, and my father all work/worked for school districts. I know exactly where my taxes are going, and I don't like the way it smells. Hell, our district recently "misplaced" 55 million dollars. Just gone, no explanation. The problem isn't money (those teachers get paid more than I do, and they get 3 months off a year). It's motivation. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. The kids these days are disrespectful, violent, drug smoking, gangbanger wannabes who have over-medicated apathetic/sociopathic parents. They would rather their kids spend all of their time on facebook or running amok unsupervised than have to actually interact with them or confront them, or even have a serious conversation once in awhile. Discipline has been replaced with enabling bad behavior through excuses. "It's not your fault, honey. We'll get you some meds." Welcome to your future, America. It is sitting in your living room, cussing you out.

[etucker1959]

This. My mother, grandmother, grandfather, mother-in-law, sister-in-law, late grandmother-in-law, and my father all work/worked for school districts. I know exactly where my taxes are going, and I don't like the way it smells. Hell, our district recently "misplaced" 55 million dollars. Just gone, no explanation. The problem isn't money (those teachers get paid more than I do, and they get 3 months off a year). It's motivation. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. The kids these days are disrespectful, violent, drug smoking, gangbanger wannabes who have over-medicated apathetic/sociopathic parents. They would rather their kids spend all of their time on facebook or running amok unsupervised than have to actually interact with them or confront them, or even have a serious conversation once in awhile. Discipline has been replaced with enabling bad behavior through excuses. "It's not your fault, honey. We'll get you some meds." Welcome to your future, America. It is sitting in your living room, cussing you out.

I don't disagree with what you say about the children and their family's. My family including myself has made a career out of education. So what's the alternative if you give up on the present system. Let it all go to Hell and a handbag, I don't think that's the answer either.

[etucker1959]

etucker1959,

Both my parents are now retired ex-employees of a very large unified school district.

If you saw the amount of waste that occurs on a daily basis, you'd feel a bit different about the statement you made. Your statement is based on the assumption that 100% of the money spent on education actually goes towards that. You can't throw money at a system that is flawed, and expect it to fix itself.

Let's just use a little logic. If 50% of all money spent on education is wasted, not likely but for arugment sake we'll use that figure. If you got millions more and 50% of the money was wasted, you would still be way better off then you were before. If I hear this argument again about reducing waste, fraud and abuse instead of raising tax's, I'm going to go ballistic.

[DockRat]

It's not your fault, honey.

Keep Honey Boo Boo out of politics.

http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h412/cw3631/Alana-the-Honey-Boo-Boo-Child-1.jpg

[DockRat]

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee492/HC3815/Animated/4690feae.gif

NO REFORM = NO MORE MONEY.




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•Teach California
•University of California
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•University of California, Hastings College of the Law
•University of California, Irv ine
•University of California, Los Angeles
•University of California, Merced
•University of California, Riverside
•University of California, San Diego
•University of California, San Francisco
•University of California, Santa Barbara
•University of California, Santa Cruz
•Veterans Home of California

This, and all the pensions that go along with them! Any questions?

We could whack 25% of those.

http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/grammygo80/General/money-to-burn.jpg

[DarkShadow]

Let's just use a little logic. If 50% of all money spent on education is wasted, not likely but for arugment sake we'll use that figure. If you got millions more and 50% of the money was wasted, you would still be way better off then you were before.

etucker,

To use an example like that personifies faulty logic and cloudy math.

We'll continue using your example, and figures. Let's say that you do add $2 million to a school's budget. They hire teachers, buy new computers, the works.

But guess what?! Let's say the teachers are THE PROBLEM? (And considering I've seen some REAL gems out there that don't know the difference between 'your' and 'you're', that may be a major part of the problem, but i'm just saying)

Essentially, you've added computers, added teachers, reduced class size, fixed class rooms all that GREAT stuff these propositions highlight to get you to vote for them.

And in the end? And this is hyperbole for the sake of my argument, you get the same dumb áss teachers educating dumb åss kids, brought up by dumb âss parents.

And, you've raised my taxes. Joy.

Now you see how throwing money at the problem isn't going to get us in 'better off shape than we were before?' The supposed end never justifies the means.

[etucker1959]

etucker,

To use an example like that personifies faulty logic and cloudy math.

We'll continue using your example, and figures. Let's say that you do add $2 million to a school's budget. They hire teachers, buy new computers, the works.

But guess what?! Let's say the teachers are THE PROBLEM? (And considering I've seen some REAL gems out there that don't know the difference between 'your' and 'you're', that may be a major part of the problem, but i'm just saying)

Essentially, you've added computers, added teachers, reduced class size, fixed class rooms all that GREAT stuff these propositions highlight to get you to vote for them.

And in the end? And this is hyperbole for the sake of my argument, you get the same dumb áss teachers educating dumb åss kids, brought up by dumb âss parents.

And, you've raised my taxes. Joy.

Now you see how throwing money at the problem isn't going to get us in 'better off shape than we were before?' The supposed end never justifies the means.

So weeee give up on our children?

[fishinarteest]

Education is for suckers!!! Right now LAUSD has class sizes up around 30 per room - LET'S shoot for 50!!! Kids are small, they'll fit..

avhsd has some around 40, i know because i was in those classes and had to help bring in more desks for several of my classes

[fishinarteest]

etucker1959,

Both my parents are now retired ex-employees of a very large unified school district.

If you saw the amount of waste that occurs on a daily basis, you'd feel a bit different about the statement you made. Your statement is based on the assumption that 100% of the money spent on education actually goes towards that. You can't throw money at a system that is flawed, and expect it to fix itself.

exactly. If im not mistaken, we've had propositions go on the ballot before about giving schools money. Now i could very well be wrong, but some of them passed(not totally 100% on that) but if they had, why are schools still asking for money. Because i have seen propositions go up for giving schools money for the last couple of years. And it seems there more broke than before. And only being out of school a couple of years, I don't remember my education getting any better.

[DarkShadow]

So weeee give up on our children?

I think someone has mentioned before that one of the main problems with our society in general is the fact that issues are treated as black or white, and the pendulum swings from extreme end to the other.

I never said give up on our children. I simply said that throwing money at the problem, without actually looking at the source of our problem is not the answer. Furthermore, in the past 20 years, we've been increasing budgets for education, yet 'we are not in better shape than we were before.' In fact, our standardized test scores, and our rankings around the world have been steadily decreasing.

In essence, history and figures are proving that, in fact, throwing more money at the problem is not functioning. And you still want to keep the same path that we're on? If you have a gas tank that has a hole in it, how about actually fixing the hole instead of thinking putting more gas into it will solve the problem?

Believe me, I don't want somebody's kid robbing me at the ATM 10 years from now because our educational system has failed them. But the system needs to be fixed before we start pumping more money into it, and that includes a complete revamping of society in general, because our schools are just a microcosm of the bigger problem at hand.

Anybody know how the flows are at the Lower Owens by any chance?

[fishinarteest]

This. My mother, grandmother, grandfather, mother-in-law, sister-in-law, late grandmother-in-law, and my father all work/worked for school districts. I know exactly where my taxes are going, and I don't like the way it smells. Hell, our district recently "misplaced" 55 million dollars. Just gone, no explanation. The problem isn't money (those teachers get paid more than I do, and they get 3 months off a year). It's motivation. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. The kids these days are disrespectful, violent, drug smoking, gangbanger wannabes who have over-medicated apathetic/sociopathic parents. They would rather their kids spend all of their time on facebook or running amok unsupervised than have to actually interact with them or confront them, or even have a serious conversation once in awhile. Discipline has been replaced with enabling bad behavior through excuses. "It's not your fault, honey. We'll get you some meds." Welcome to your future, America. It is sitting in your living room, cussing you out.

and i would really hate to triple post here. But this is true, every word here is true. I don't enjoy getting as involved in these discussions as most people here do. But education is something i take seriously that i will say something about. Skyler hit the nail dead on.

[DEVOREFLYER]

Flows at the lower Owens is to 317 and coming up and down every day. Waiting for a stable 200 for a drift boat trip.

http://wsoweb.ladwp.com/Aqueduct/realtime/norealtime.htm

[etucker1959]

LIST OF STATE OF CALIFORNIA AGENCIES:

The reason California is broke and will remain broke.
Cut a number of these and then get back to me about me refusing to spend another dime of my money, good Gawd over 500 agencys and we can't cut or eliminate some to save education. Give me a "F'n" break!!!!!
Nanny state at it's finest and it's a look where 0bummer want's to take the USA. Not one Damn red cent more until change and reform!!!!!!

•California Academic Performance Index (API)
•California Access for Infants and Mothers
•California Acupuncture Board
•California Administrative Office of the Courts
•California Adoptions Branch
•California African American Museum
•California Agricultural Export Program
•California Agricultural Labor Relations Board
•California Agricultural Statistics Service
•California Air Resources Board (CARB)
•California Allocation Board
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•California Animal Health and Food Safety Services
•California Anti-Terrorism Information Center
•California Apprenticeship Council
•California Arbitration Certification Program
•California Architects Board
•California Area VI Developmental Disabilities Board
•California Arts Council
•California Asian Pacific Islander Legislative Caucus
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•California Athletic Commission
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•California Board of Equalization (BOE)
•California Board of Forestry and Fire Protection
•California Board of Guide Dogs for the Blind
•California Board of Occupational Therapy
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•California Board of Psychology
•California Board of Registered Nursing
•California Board of Trustees
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•California Braille and Talking Book Library
•California Building Standards Commission
•California Bureau for Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education
•California Bureau of Automotive Repair
•California Bureau of Electronic and Appliance Repair
•California Bureau of Home Furnishings and Thermal Insulation
•California Bureau of Naturopathic Medicine
•California Bureau of Security and Investigative Services
•California Bureau of State Audits
•California Business Agency
•California Business Investment Services (CalBIS)
•California Business Permit Information (CalGOLD)
•California Business Portal
•California Business, Transportation and Housing Agency
•California Cal Grants
•California CalJOBS
•California Cal-Learn Program
•California CalVet Home Loan Program
•California Career Resource Network
•California Cemetery and Funeral Bureau
•California Center for Analytical Chemistry
•California Center for Distributed Learning
•California Center for Teaching Careers (Teach California)
•California Chancellors Office
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•California Commission on State Mandates
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•California Demographic Research Unit
•California Dental Auxiliaries
•California Department of Aging
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•California Department of Boating and Waterways (Cal Boating)
•California Department of Child Support Services (CDCSS)
•California Department of Community Services and Development
•California Department of Conservation
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•California Department of Corporations
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•California Department of Finance
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•California Department of Fish and Game
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•California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection (CDF)
•California Department of General Services
•California Department of General Services, Office of State Publishing
•California Department of Health Care Services
•California Department of Housing and Community Development
•Californ ia Department of Industrial Relations (DIR)
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•California Digital Library
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•California Office of Historic Preservation
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•California State Children's Trust Fun d
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•California State Polytechnic University, Pomona
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•California Welfare to Work Division
•California Wetlands Information System
•California Wildlife and Habitat Data Analysis Branch
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•California Wildlife Programs Branch
•California Work Opportunity and Responsibility to Kids (CalWORKs)
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•California Youth Authority (CYA)
•Central Valley Flood Protection Board
•Center for California Studies
•Colorado River Board of California
•Counting California
•Dental Board of California
•Health Insurance Plan of California (PacAdvantage)
•Humboldt State University
•Jobs with the State of California
•Judicial Council of California
•Learn California
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•Little Hoover Commission (on California State Government Organization and Economy)
•Medical Board of California
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•Regents of the University of California
•San Diego State University
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•San Jose State University
•Santa Monica Mountains Conservancy
•State Bar of California
•Supreme Court of California
•Teach California
•University of California
•University of California, Berkeley
•University of California, Davis
•University of California, Hastings College of the Law
•University of California, Irv ine
•University of California, Los Angeles
•University of California, Merced
•University of California, Riverside
•University of California, San Diego
•University of California, San Francisco
•University of California, Santa Barbara
•University of California, Santa Cruz
•Veterans Home of California

This, and all the pensions that go along with them! Any questions?

Thank you guy's for admitting what you really believe in!!!!!!!

[DEVOREFLYER]

Hey Dip S*** quit asking the questions if ya can't handle the answers!!!!! Next.....

[etucker1959]

Hey Dip S*** quit asking the questions if ya can't handle the answers!!!!! Next.....

Are you so dumb that you think any of us liberals here, are trying to convince you cheap *** Republicans to end your short sighted thinking. Hell no, we are here to discuss both sides of the questions and let the silent audience make up their own minds who is right.

[Skyler]

Are you so dumb that you think any of us liberals here, are trying to convince you cheap *** Republicans to end your short sighted thinking. Hell no, we are here to discuss both sides of the questions and let the silent audience make up their own minds who is right.

Cheap? This state already taxes and regulates us far more than any other, short of maybe Hawaii. Some of us are sick of paying so much and seeing no returns on our investment. This is a non-partisan issue. I am not a Republican, and even I can see that this state's wasteful spending practices are insatiable. No matter how much we give, they will spend it all frivolously. Enough already. Until we get a handle on the misuse and abuse of our tax dollars, we'll just keep paying higher and higher tax rates. I say no on 30, because that money will be misappropriated, as per usual. Deep down inside, you know this as well.

[Lady Quagga]

Hey Dip S*** quit asking the questions if ya can't handle the answers!!!!! Next.....

But Dev, your post wasn't really an answer, just a copy & paste job from The Patriot Post (http://patriotpost.us/pages/256).

[etucker1959]

Cheap? This state already taxes and regulates us far more than any other, short of maybe Hawaii. Some of us are sick of paying so much and seeing no returns on our investment. This is a non-partisan issue. I am not a Republican, and even I can see that this state's wasteful spending practices are insatiable. No matter how much we give, they will spend it all frivolously. Enough already. Until we get a handle on the misuse and abuse of our tax dollars, we'll just keep paying higher and higher tax rates. I say no on 30, because that money will be misappropriated, as per usual. Deep down inside, you know this as well.
Let's talk about wasteful spending. If the Republicans can so easily find wasteful spending, why don't they stop it in area's they control. There is any awful lot of red states and here in California the Republicans do control some districts. So in theory those area's should have the lowest tax rates and the greatest amount of quality services. Please provide the links proving that, so the other area's of the country can learn from them.

[seal]

Let's talk about wasteful spending. If the Republicans can so easily find wasteful spending, why don't they stop it in area's they control. There is any awful lot of red states and here in California the Republicans do control some districts. So in theory those area's should have the lowest tax rates and the greatest amount of quality services. Please provide the links proving that, so the other area's of the country can learn from them.

So Skyler says this is a "non-partisan" issue and you come back with "If the Republicans can so easily find wasteful spending, why don't they stop it in area's they control?", did you even read his response? Those districts have no chance of changing this state it is controlled by the big city liberals where the population base is, also how would these districts control the amount of money the state taxes they only have control of regional taxation.

Links aren't needed when you have the largest state economy in the country, a great tourism trade etc.. and you cannot balance your budget, that is directly on the liberals since they are controlling this state, California needs a balance of power but it will not happen cause the liberals that are controlling this state are too ignorant to figure out that when somebody doesn't perform you toss um out on their butts!

[HawgZWylde]

So Skyler says this is a "non-partisan" issue and you come back with "If the Republicans can so easily find wasteful spending, why don't they stop it in area's they control?", did you even read his response? Those districts have no chance of changing this state it is controlled by the big city liberals where the population base is, also how would these districts control the amount of money the state taxes they only have control of regional taxation.

Links aren't needed when you have the largest state economy in the country, a great tourism trade etc.. and you cannot balance your budget, that is directly on the liberals since they are controlling this state, California needs a balance of power but it will not happen cause the liberals that are controlling this state are too ignorant to figure out that when somebody doesn't perform you toss um out on their butts!

Seal, the libs want a one party system, period. It's why their "mode of operandi" is character assassination of anyone who doesn't follow their progressive liberal agenda. Here in Cali they have nearly accomplished that. I have read of several liberal Cali congresspeople state they are literally licking their chops and giddy at the prospect of gaining a 2/3 majority in the up coming elections. If that happens, these propositions are moot as with a 2/3 majority, they will not require a public vote on raising taxes, they will just vote it in at the legislative level. My bet is if they do in fact gain that 2/3 majority, we will see big tax hikes come January. Voter approved or not.

Hey, how was your trip to Mead?

[etucker1959]

So Skyler says this is a "non-partisan" issue and you come back with "If the Republicans can so easily find wasteful spending, why don't they stop it in area's they control?", did you even read his response? Those districts have no chance of changing this state it is controlled by the big city liberals where the population base is, also how would these districts control the amount of money the state taxes they only have control of regional taxation.

Links aren't needed when you have the largest state economy in the country, a great tourism trade etc.. and you cannot balance your budget, that is directly on the liberals since they are controlling this state, California needs a balance of power but it will not happen cause the liberals that are controlling this state are too ignorant to figure out that when somebody doesn't perform you toss um out on their butts!

Ok Seal you are right about the Republican districts can't do much by themselves. When it comes to balancing the state budget, I see and like what governor Moonbeam is about to do. He is going to balance the budget in one of two ways. If the people vote for his tax increases he will have a more robust budget, with schools being one of the more funded programs. If the people reject his proposed tax increases, well you get what you get, but don't blame the governor for your favorite programs being cut or reduced. I'm saving the best for last. Let's talk about wasteful spending, Republican like people want to call wasteful spending a non-partisan issue. Really you got to be kidding me, ONLY REPUBLICAN LIKE PEOPLE BRING IT UP AT ALL. It's their universal excuse for EVERYTHING when it comes to paying tax's. You hear it all the time, the bottom line is this; THEIR IS A BUNCH OF SELFISH PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO DON'T WANT TO PAY TAX'S FOR MUCH OF ANYTHING. Instead of just admitting their just a bunch of cheap *** bastards, they use the excuse of wasteful spending. So you see Seal and company it is NOT a non-partisan issue.

[Skyler]

Tucker, we already pay enough. By your argument, you are a cheap bastard, because I doubt you want to pay 70% of your income. Why not go all the way? 100% ftw. Come on, it's for the schools (and bullet train). Quit being so cheap. Sacrifice your family's livelyhood for the sake of the children you selfish bastard. As you can see, there is a point where anybody would get fed up. For most of us, that point has come. Selfish? No. Realistic? Perhaps. Concerned or even alarmed? Absolutely.

[Natural Lefty]

"California's spending per pupil was the same as the national average until about 1985, when it began decreasing" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prop._13)

http://toped.svefoundation.org/2012/01/13/ca-student-spending-near-bottom/

Currently, California is ranked 47th out of 50 states in spending per student.

I don't have a lot of spare time to check these things out, but I had to answer the utter balderdash that we had half the spending "in the good old days" of Reagan on education and our results were "twice as good." The fact is that California has been lagging farther and farther behind in spending for public schools, since 1985.

And Thank You, Etucker!

[DockRat]

LOL, Etucker
Yah sure the Tax INCREASE will pass. :LOL::LOL::LOL:


If the people vote for his tax increases :LOL::LOL::LOL:

THEIR IS A BUNCH OF SELFISH PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO DON'T WANT TO PAY TAX'S FOR MUCH OF ANYTHING.
:LOL::LOL::LOL:


Us working class don't pay ENOUGH TAXES ALREADY ???


http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk71/scruffman1/473292408_f4b8fbfde3.jpg

[DarkShadow]

http://toped.svefoundation.org/2012/01/13/ca-student-spending-near-bottom/

Currently, California is ranked 47th out of 50 states in spending per student.


Now, how is this data computed? I read the article and don't see any details regarding the question I had.

For example, if $100 is given to the school district, and it has 100 students, that should equal $1 per student.

BUT, let's say $200 is given to the school district, and it has 100 students, AND $100 of those dollars don't end up to the student, but rather the school district bureaucracy. Does that also equal $1 per student, or are we being lead to believe that now we're actually giving $2 per student?

Anybody with the inner workings of this know how that figure of "spending per student" is computed? Does that also compute the money spent 'away' from the actual student?

[JL]

Amazing the variety of information provided by what you all hear on the TV and Radio. Prop 30 DOES NOT fund schools. Regardless of what the first paragraph of the prop states --- the proposition allows the government to move the money through various accounting exceptions so that what money is sent to the schools can cause other school funding to be held by the government for use in other areas.......

Second: Today Colorado announced that its unemployment rate went down thanks to several businesses that moved out of California. Another tax will chase more businesses out of California.

THIRD Raising sales taxes hurt the poor more that the rich.

Finally --- regardless of what you feel about taxing in California and whether you are liberal, conservative or something in between....... WE MUST CUT SPENDING BY GOVERNMENT. We don't need to even discuss hi speed trains, we don't need to fund Gay agenda programs to teach our kids to actively pursue the Gay lifestyle, we don't need to fund planned parenthood which does NOT PROVIDE mammograms or another female medical exams......but does perform abortions....Why are our taxes use to fund abortions........and those are just a few large cuts that can be made.........

What is sad is that California is being run by 1 political party...... even the last redistricting made it even more unfair ---- and allowing decisions by the assembly to pass on simple majority vote will in the end destroy the dream state and create a poverty state in about 10 years.

We have half of our children (we have 8) and their familys living in 4 other states. The other half live in California. The California families need nearly 20 - 30 per cent more income to live the same lifestyle as there bother and sisters outside of California. Most of the out of state children have either no state income tax or no sales tax.

God Bless you all and Tight Lines.

[Lady Quagga]

Finally --- regardless of what you feel about taxing in California and whether you are liberal, conservative or something in between....... WE MUST CUT SPENDING BY GOVERNMENT. We don't need to even discuss hi speed trains, we don't need to fund Gay agenda programs to teach our kids to actively pursue the Gay lifestyle, we don't need to fund planned parenthood which does NOT PROVIDE mammograms or another female medical exams......but does perform abortions....Why are our taxes use to fund abortions........and those are just a few large cuts that can be made.........

[...]

We have half of our children (we have 8) and their familys living in 4 other states. The other half live in California. The California families need nearly 20 - 30 per cent more income to live the same lifestyle as there bother and sisters outside of California. Most of the out of state children have either no state income tax or no sales tax.

Cutting government spending doesn't necessarily mean eliminating programs, but rather having those programs run more efficiently. It's a recurring theme - people are quick to demand the elimination of programs they oppose on moral grounds, but are equally quick to defend continuing programs they agree with.

JL: we do not live in a Christian fantasy land where sex only occurs between married couples, and abstinence is the only method of birth control. Like it or not, there will be unwanted pregnancies, and many of those unwanted pregnancies will occur among women unable to cover the cost of abortions. Are you - not society, but you specifically - prepared to shoulder the economic and social burden of supporting these unwanted children?

My immediate family lives in a state with no income tax, and a sales tax lower than California's. And while the cost of living is somewhat lower there, so are average wages and salaries. Bottom line, there is no significant economical advantage to them living there as opposed to living in California.

[Natural Lefty]

Dark Shadow, you are asking whether administrative costs are included in the analysis. As far as I know, all school costs are included in the figure, including administrative costs, but I don't see where it specifically says that.

Skyler, it's unfortunate that money was lost in your district. That would appear to be embezzlement to me. Hopefully, the perpetrators will be caught, but that is not an indictment of public schools as a whole. Businesses sometimes have embezzlers, too, which can drive up the costs of goods and services. For that matter, much of the price of gasoline is based on speculation. I recently saw an article about a speculator who got drunk, bought a bunch of gasoline while drunk, and drove up the price of gasoline considerably all by himself. I think that was the gist of the article although I am not sure I remember it correctly.

If there are state government programs we can cut, then we should, but that's always a sticky question. There are always people who think a particular program is important. Personally, I think we aren't so badly off here in California, and if the economy improves, so will the deficit.

JL, do your out of state children live in "right to work" AKA right to work for less states? Here is something I just saw in Thought and Action, the journal of the National Education Association. There are 23 right to work states and 27 that are not. Making a comparison, Darrell Minor finds that right to work states trail in gross domestic product, $38,750.50 compared to $41,529.50 in non right to work states, which includes California. Poverty rates in "worker-friendly" states average 11.9% compared to 13.9% in "right to work" states. Both of these differences are statistically significant. The percentage of people who don't have health insurance is higher in right to work states at 15.7% compared to 12.6% in worker friendly states. Finally, there is a significant life expectancy effect, such that people tend to live longer in "worker friendly" states. Life expectancy in "worker friendly" states is 77.6 years, compared to 76.7 years for "right to work" states. My father always paid employees in his radiology office very well. It looks like that is just good practice.

[etucker1959]

Dark Shadow, you are asking whether administrative costs are included in the analysis. As far as I know, all school costs are included in the figure, including administrative costs, but I don't see where it specifically says that.

Skyler, it's unfortunate that money was lost in your district. That would appear to be embezzlement to me. Hopefully, the perpetrators will be caught, but that is not an indictment of public schools as a whole. Businesses sometimes have embezzlers, too, which can drive up the costs of goods and services. For that matter, much of the price of gasoline is based on speculation. I recently saw an article about a speculator who got drunk, bought a bunch of gasoline while drunk, and drove up the price of gasoline considerably all by himself. I think that was the gist of the article although I am not sure I remember it correctly.

If there are state government programs we can cut, then we should, but that's always a sticky question. There are always people who think a particular program is important. Personally, I think we aren't so badly off here in California, and if the economy improves, so will the deficit.

JL, do your out of state children live in "right to work" AKA right to work for less states? Here is something I just saw in Thought and Action, the journal of the National Education Association. There are 23 right to work states and 27 that are not. Making a comparison, Darrell Minor finds that right to work states trail in gross domestic product, $38,750.50 compared to $41,529.50 in non right to work states, which includes California. Poverty rates in "worker-friendly" states average 11.9% compared to 13.9% in "right to work" states. Both of these differences are statistically significant. The percentage of people who don't have health insurance is higher in right to work states at 15.7% compared to 12.6% in worker friendly states. Finally, there is a significant life expectancy effect, such that people tend to live longer in "worker friendly" states. Life expectancy in "worker friendly" states is 77.6 years, compared to 76.7 years for "right to work" states. My father always paid employees in his radiology office very well. It looks like that is just good practice.

I sure hope someone try's to put a conserative spin on the right to work laws states statistics. If not, I will just say "If you want to go backwards in the average persons standard of living," go ahead and keep passing a bunch of dumb laws!!!!! Good job again Natural Lefty.

[DEVOREFLYER]

April 22, 2012 Wall Street Journal

"California Governor Jerry Brown is trying to sell his Proposition 30 tax hike to voters this November by saying it will go to schools. The dirty little secret is that the new revenues are needed to backfill the insolvent teachers pension fund."


In other related news:

October 24, 2012 Businesswire.com

"California Retired Teachers Association Launches Campaign to Support Proposition 30"



Oh and my wife and I mailed our ballots off today. NO on 30, NO on 38 and NO on local School Bonds. NO, NO, NO!!!!!!!! No new taxes.

[tacklejunkie]

Ah yes, the old ' throw money at the problem until it goes away' tactic. Way to think outside the box. Our teachers are already paid the highest in the nation, yet we have the lowest test scores and highest drop out rates. Money isn't the issue. I doubt buying the school a box of ipads and a extra field trip a year will change that. The parents need to take an active role in their kids' education for an improvements to be seen. Of course they'll have to actually put down the crack pipe and acknowledge the punks' existence first.
:Cool:
I'd probably vote for Skyler for president.
At least he has some freakin' values.

Cash never solved anything.

[etucker1959]

Hey, no comments on this one!!!!!!

[etucker1959]

On a related subject, did you notice that the demorats got a 2/3 super majority in both houses in the state legislature of California.

[Natural Lefty]

Yes, I will, etucker. Obama won, a lot of progressives were elected, a lot of right-wing nutbags were unelected, and proposition 30 won, helping save public education in California from a dire situation. On Tuesday, we proved that you can't buy or lie your way into political power, at least not anymore, so while conservatives are whining about the end of democracy, the collective voice of the people actually proved that we still have a democracy.

Yes, I heard about the supermajority on the radio yesterday. I think that's cool, to say the least. We might even be able to pass budgets or even (horror of horrors to conservatives) increase taxes on the rich, bypassing prop. 13 (although prop. 30 already did that). Most of the propositions went the way I voted, in fact, with a couple of exceptions. Also, Mark Takano was elected in this newly redrawn district of the Riverside/Moreno Valley area. He is a schoolteacher, board member of the college where I teach, and Harvard grad, and the first Democrat I can ever remember representing this area.

[5150fishn]

So now that we have raised the taxes on those that pay the most already we will see how many of these so to speak (rich people) bail out of the state and take their tax dollars with them. If this occurs like many think it will then the sales tax increase will not put a dent in the loss of tax dollars making an exodus from the state. This tax will not put more money in classrooms but be used to back fill the teachers pensions. I have a young daughter and would love to believe that this money would be used the right way but it won't! We now have the highest tax rate in the nation!

[Skyler]

So now that we have raised the taxes on those that pay the most already we will see how many of these so to speak (rich people) bail out of the state and take their tax dollars with them. If this occurs like many think it will then the sales tax increase will not put a dent in the loss of tax dollars making an exodus from the state. This tax will not put more money in classrooms but be used to back fill the teachers pensions. I have a young daughter and would love to believe that this money would be used the right way but it won't! We now have the highest tax rate in the nation!

Exactly. People who can afford to pay that much can also afford to move to Texas and Arizona. And trust me, they will...Can't say I blame them.

[etucker1959]

Exactly. People who can afford to pay that much can also afford to move to Texas and Arizona. And trust me, they will...Can't say I blame them.
I can't wait for that to happen, less people with their big fancy boats fishing in my favorite spots. lol

[etucker1959]

I'm practicing my cutting and pasting skills. Where is DocRat when you need him?

[etucker1959]

Exactly. People who can afford to pay that much can also afford to move to Texas and Arizona. And trust me, they will...Can't say I blame them.
Why would anyone want to move to Texas? Everybody knows their is only two things in Texas. lol

[5150fishn]

So approximatly 54% of the voters had no problem spending someone else's income tax money by voting for Prop. 30. Yet if they were really worried about the schools they should have voted yes on Prop. 38 which would have taxed everyone not just the rich who already pay more than their share and create jobs. But only 26% of the people were willing to spend their own money to help out the schools on a Prop. that truly would have put money in the classrooms. Put your money where your mouth is!

[etucker1959]

So now that we have raised the taxes on those that pay the most already we will see how many of these so to speak (rich people) bail out of the state and take their tax dollars with them. If this occurs like many think it will then the sales tax increase will not put a dent in the loss of tax dollars making an exodus from the state. This tax will not put more money in classrooms but be used to back fill the teachers pensions. I have a young daughter and would love to believe that this money would be used the right way but it won't! We now have the highest tax rate in the nation!
It's so amazing to me, with your statements being common knowledge how in the world did Prop 30 pass in the first place?

[Skyler]

I can't wait for that to happen, less people with their big fancy boats fishing in my favorite spots. lol

They won't mind. They'll be in texas where the fishing is actually good and the license and boat registration costs half as much.

[Mojave River Angler]

I've worked every day of my last 20 years in education (everything from scrubbing toilets to teaching). If you think Prop 30 is a "REAL" solution...you are part of the problem.

I wonder if you even read what it says in the Sample Ballot you got...especially the part about what money goes where...and then ask yourself why.

Hmmmm. I though not, but if it makes you feel good to vote that way...go for it. YOUR money is wasted.

Kind of reminds me of some of the other people I work with hating on wall street and then they get POd when they find out their pension is in the can. The irony is lovely. They're not worried though, the union said they were going to take care of them. NICE!

[etucker1959]

They won't mind. They'll be in texas where the fishing is actually good and the license and boat registration costs half as much.

Last time I checked, Texas was in a severe drought. No water, well you get the idea!!!

[etucker1959]

I've worked every day of my last 20 years in education (everything from scrubbing toilets to teaching). If you think Prop 30 is a "REAL" solution...you are part of the problem.

I wonder if you even read what it says in the Sample Ballot you got...especially the part about what money goes where...and then ask yourself why.

Hmmmm. I though not, but if it makes you feel good to vote that way...go for it. YOUR money is wasted.

Kind of reminds me of some of the other people I work with hating on wall street and then they get POd when they find out their pension is in the can. The irony is lovely. They're not worried though, the union said they were going to take care of them. NICE!

You know what I think will be the proof is in the pudding to see who's right on this one. If they don't have to cut down on the amount of school days in a year.

[Skyler]

Last time I checked, Texas was in a severe drought. No water, well you get the idea!!!

No water in Texas means there are only 8 times the lakes as Socal instead of 12 times.

[5150fishn]

You know what I think will be the proof is in the pudding to see who's right on this one. If they don't have to cut down on the amount of school days in a year.
That was a bluff and a bad one at that. All of the other administrators said that it was never going to happen regardless of the outcome. Political BS to scare the minions.

[DockRat]

5150 Driving it home.
http://i717.photobucket.com/albums/ww173/prestonjjrtr/Smileys/2-1.gif

[fishinarteest]

No water in Texas means there are only 8 times the lakes as Socal instead of 12 times.

you know they actually have to stock striper in lake amistad. random fun fact.

[fishinarteest]

I've worked every day of my last 20 years in education (everything from scrubbing toilets to teaching). If you think Prop 30 is a "REAL" solution...you are part of the problem.

I wonder if you even read what it says in the Sample Ballot you got...especially the part about what money goes where...and then ask yourself why.

Hmmmm. I though not, but if it makes you feel good to vote that way...go for it. YOUR money is wasted.

Kind of reminds me of some of the other people I work with hating on wall street and then they get POd when they find out their pension is in the can. The irony is lovely. They're not worried though, the union said they were going to take care of them. NICE!

I'm still shocked that people are gullible enough to believe that this money is actually going to go to schools. Well let me rephrase that, the money will go to schools, just not the part of schools that we think there going to, Like childrens education. Its times like this when you really appreciate the teachers that are trying to teach there students and make them learn something before the school year is over. Instead of the ones who hate coming to work everyday, don't bother to help there students, and take off an endless amount of days from work.

[HawgZWylde]

I've worked every day of my last 20 years in education (everything from scrubbing toilets to teaching). If you think Prop 30 is a "REAL" solution...you are part of the problem.

I wonder if you even read what it says in the Sample Ballot you got...especially the part about what money goes where...and then ask yourself why.
Hmmmm. I though not, but if it makes you feel good to vote that way...go for it. YOUR money is wasted.

Kind of reminds me of some of the other people I work with hating on wall street and then they get POd when they find out their pension is in the can. The irony is lovely. They're not worried though, the union said they were going to take care of them. NICE!

AMEN BRO!!!

Thank you for being honest...

[etucker1959]

I've worked every day of my last 20 years in education (everything from scrubbing toilets to teaching). If you think Prop 30 is a "REAL" solution...you are part of the problem.

I wonder if you even read what it says in the Sample Ballot you got...especially the part about what money goes where...and then ask yourself why.

Hmmmm. I though not, but if it makes you feel good to vote that way...go for it. YOUR money is wasted.

Kind of reminds me of some of the other people I work with hating on wall street and then they get POd when they find out their pension is in the can. The irony is lovely. They're not worried though, the union said they were going to take care of them. NICE!

If it will make you guys sleep better at night, your all correct the money will all be wasted. So unless you make over $250,000 a year, you'll barely even notice it passed.

[DockRat]

If it will make you guys sleep better at night, your all correct the money will all be wasted. So unless you make over $250,000 a year, you'll barely even notice it passed.

Suppose the person making over $250k owns a business and has to lay off a worker due to the new tax. If you were that person that received the pink slip,
WOULD YOU NOTICE THAT ? :Crying:
DR

[casting call]

The UTLA thanks the 53% of california voters. Now they have peace of mind of a secure retirement. What a joke California is.

[Lady Quagga]

The UTLA thanks the 53% of california voters. Now they have peace of mind of a secure retirement. What a joke California is.

Can I ask you what mechanism you would have had in place to ensure the quality education of those who cannot afford the privilege of a private prep school education?

[Lady Quagga]

Suppose the person making over $250k owns a business and has to lay off a worker due to the new tax. If you were that person that received the pink slip,
WOULD YOU NOTICE THAT ? :Crying:
DR

I challenge you to produce examples of exactly the scenario you have just described.

[DockRat]

I challenge you to produce examples of exactly the scenario you have just described.

That would be easy. I challenge you to STDU.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s186/littleone2005_2007/thDuckie-Bondage.jpg

[DockRat]

:LOL:Jerry's Tools:LOL:

http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u335/dathomas_photo/classroomofstudentsdrawing.jpg

Most Californians would be surprised to learn that 100 percent of education’s share of the tax increase proposed by Governor Jerry Brown will go to pensions instead of classrooms. But that would be no surprise to longtime observers of the California State Teachers’ Retirement System, which administers teacher pensions.

Here’s why: After retirement, teachers are unconditionally guaranteed lifetime pensions by their school districts. Everything works out fine if Calstrs, as the retirement system is known, earns the investment returns it forecasts and from which upfront contributions are derived.

But if they fall short, school districts must make up the difference. Because of compounding, the failure to earn forecasted earnings translates into huge deficiencies down the road.

Unfortunately, “down the road” is where school districts are now. Because Calstrs has earned only 60 percent of its forecasted investment return since 1999, it needs school districts to boost contributions by more than $100 billion. Worse, Calstrs waited so long to seek more contributions that its request is now for an extra $4.5 billion a year, almost double the $5 billion a year it already receives in contributions.

School districts can’t come up with such a large amount of money without harming classrooms. And while they could defer the request (Calstrs has enough cash to meet current pension obligations for now), doing so would be very expensive because every year that a contribution is deferred increases the required contribution amount by 7.5 percent, compounded. For example, for every $4.5 billion not contributed now, more than $9 billion would be required 10 years from now. Thus it’s much cheaper, and much fairer to future generations, to increase contributions now.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-23/new-california-taxes-pay-for-pensions-not-schools.html

[etucker1959]

Suppose the person making over $250k owns a business and has to lay off a worker due to the new tax. If you were that person that received the pink slip,
WOULD YOU NOTICE THAT ? :Crying:
DR
If a person is making over $250,000 and the new tax's makes this guy cut back on expenses. I'm wondering how many ex wives this guy's got and how many homes and toy's this man owns. I'll tell you what, let's hope this guy has to sell his big fancy boat, because all's he ever did with it, was to run thru my chum line on the party boats.

[etucker1959]

:LOL:Jerry's Tools:LOL:

http://i517.photobucket.com/albums/u335/dathomas_photo/classroomofstudentsdrawing.jpg

Most Californians would be surprised to learn that 100 percent of education’s share of the tax increase proposed by Governor Jerry Brown will go to pensions instead of classrooms. But that would be no surprise to longtime observers of the California State Teachers’ Retirement System, which administers teacher pensions.

Here’s why: After retirement, teachers are unconditionally guaranteed lifetime pensions by their school districts. Everything works out fine if Calstrs, as the retirement system is known, earns the investment returns it forecasts and from which upfront contributions are derived.

But if they fall short, school districts must make up the difference. Because of compounding, the failure to earn forecasted earnings translates into huge deficiencies down the road.

Unfortunately, “down the road” is where school districts are now. Because Calstrs has earned only 60 percent of its forecasted investment return since 1999, it needs school districts to boost contributions by more than $100 billion. Worse, Calstrs waited so long to seek more contributions that its request is now for an extra $4.5 billion a year, almost double the $5 billion a year it already receives in contributions.

School districts can’t come up with such a large amount of money without harming classrooms. And while they could defer the request (Calstrs has enough cash to meet current pension obligations for now), doing so would be very expensive because every year that a contribution is deferred increases the required contribution amount by 7.5 percent, compounded. For example, for every $4.5 billion not contributed now, more than $9 billion would be required 10 years from now. Thus it’s much cheaper, and much fairer to future generations, to increase contributions now.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-23/new-california-taxes-pay-for-pensions-not-schools.html

We should all go out and quit our jobs and become teachers. Been there done that it's a lousy job, teachers earn all the money they get paid.

[5150fishn]

It just goes to show that you can work hard, be successful, and pay for others bad choices! Etucker you sound like you have boat ENVY!

[Lady Quagga]

That would be easy. I challenge you to STDU.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s186/littleone2005_2007/thDuckie-Bondage.jpg

That's cute and all, but it doesn't prove anything except how much of a copy and paste retard you are. So once again:

I challenge you to produce examples of exactly the scenario you have just described.

[Caliyak]

Here's my two cents after the elections,

As for the rich, I don't see the Hollywood folks, SF folks and the Beverly Hills cats going anywhere. We will not see an exodus of folks leaving SD, Orange County, Malibu, central coast, central valley, mountains, tahoe area or Silicon valley and running to some desert like AZ or Texas. Here is why no one is leaving, the rich get more tax breaks and tax ride offs than us common folk. We live is Cali, nothing else like in the great USA.

The Dems and Reps say the opposite but do the same thing. The Dems want to tax the rich but have loopholes and breaks so they actually dont pay more. The Reps are just shameless and want to give the rich a break. Sorry, but the rich don't produce jobs. That is a lie. How many main street shops are owned by rich folks? I live in the valley and I've yet to meet a "rich" farmer. That's BS talking. What produces jobs is supply and demand. What the Dems are providing for jobs is BS and what the Reps are providing for jobs is BS. Let me take this furhter, for you LA folks, anyone work for Kobe Bryant? Any of your SF guys work for Patrick Willis or Jim Harbough? Any of us work for guys like Tom Cruise, Hollywood stars or Rock stars? Probably not. Why? they are rich but produce nothing of substance for us. Other than dirty movies and lusting pics, what do the Kardashians or Paris Hilton produce?
Ok, I got a little carried away. :Big Grin:

So nothing will happen to the rich but us middle class folk are screwed. The middle class will pay for everything and everyone.
As for education, I love school and I support raising taxes for all American children to get an education. But, the system is too top heavy and the teachers need the resources and assistance. To bad they will never see it. What a shame.

[etucker1959]

Here's my two cents after the elections,

As for the rich, I don't see the Hollywood folks, SF folks and the Beverly Hills cats going anywhere. We will not see an exodus of folks leaving SD, Orange County, Malibu, central coast, central valley, mountains, tahoe area or Silicon valley and running to some desert like AZ or Texas. Here is why no one is leaving, the rich get more tax breaks and tax ride offs than us common folk. We live is Cali, nothing else like in the great USA.

The Dems and Reps say the opposite but do the same thing. The Dems want to tax the rich but have loopholes and breaks so they actually dont pay more. The Reps are just shameless and want to give the rich a break. Sorry, but the rich don't produce jobs. That is a lie. How many main street shops are owned by rich folks? I live in the valley and I've yet to meet a "rich" farmer. That's BS talking. What produces jobs is supply and demand. What the Dems are providing for jobs is BS and what the Reps are providing for jobs is BS. Let me take this furhter, for you LA folks, anyone work for Kobe Bryant? Any of your SF guys work for Patrick Willis or Jim Harbough? Any of us work for guys like Tom Cruise, Hollywood stars or Rock stars? Probably not. Why? they are rich but produce nothing of substance for us. Other than dirty movies and lusting pics, what do the Kardashians or Paris Hilton produce?
Ok, I got a little carried away. :Big Grin:

So nothing will happen to the rich but us middle class folk are screwed. The middle class will pay for everything and everyone.
As for education, I love school and I support raising taxes for all American children to get an education. But, the system is too top heavy and the teachers need the resources and assistance. To bad they will never see it. What a shame.

Nice post!!!

[fishinone]

I'm still shocked that people are gullible enough to believe that this money is actually going to go to schools. Well let me rephrase that, the money will go to schools, just not the part of schools that we think there going to, Like childrens education. Its times like this when you really appreciate the teachers that are trying to teach there students and make them learn something before the school year is over. Instead of the ones who hate coming to work everyday, don't bother to help there students, and take off an endless amount of days from work.

This sentence makes me appreciate teachers!

[DockRat]

Let me take this furhter, for you LA folks, anyone work for Kobe Bryant? Any of your SF guys work for Patrick Willis or Jim Harbough? Any of us work for guys like Tom Cruise, Hollywood stars or Rock stars?
Welcome to the talk board. Celebs BIG spend BIG money down here.

Rich folks provide lots of work. My daughter has served Pau Gasol, Sasha and other celebs. I used to do electrical for the Marciano Brothers (Guess Jeans), even did some work at Paul Marciano's house in 90210 BH. He drove a convertible VW Rabbit in the early 80's. Those Bros employ thousands (THEY BUILT THAT). Worked with a crew at Rosanne's house in Rancho Palos Verdes. We had a crew up there for months doing electrical, we did about $200k in electrical there, worked on Mariette Hartley's house in 90210. I have friends that work for celebs too. My buddy built a transmission for Julia Roberts vintage VW micro Bus.

Dan Aykroyd has House of Blues on the Sunset Strip.
Ever heard of Magic Johnson, Paul Newman ?
Lots of restaurants in LA owned by stars.
Arnold has a restaurant in Santa Monica.
Wee Man opened up a Chronic Tacos at PCH in Redondo.
Eva Longoria has a restaurant.
The list goes on and on.

Ran into Brian Shaw on Redondo Pier. He fishes out of Redondo.
Go Lakers !

[DockRat]

I'm wondering how many ex wives this guy's got and how many homes and toy's this man owns. http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/beachbomar/jealoussign.gif



So What.
All those expenses create jobs.
Do you think it is cheap to maintain a big house, boat ?
Everybody wins, the gardener, mechanics, insurance agents, and yes, even the rich lawyers.
Then they spend there money, more jobs jobs jobs.
Don't be a hater.

Maybe if you turned off your computer, get out there and hustle, YOU too could be rich. Slackers never get rich, quite buying lottery tickets (terrible odds).
This country was built by rich people creating jobs. Disney, Oil, Silicone Valley, Ford, even Walmart.
DR

[DockRat]

I challenge you to produce examples of exactly the scenario you have just described.
Since the law and tax has not kicked in, you have to wait.
Friend of mine closed his concrete business, got too expensive. Taxes, workmans comp, ect.
He employed a crew for for 35 years.
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/ave_satanas73/bondageduckie.jpg

[DarkShadow]

This country was built by rich people creating jobs. Disney, Oil, Silicone Valley, Ford, even Walmart.
DR

Yes, SR. "If you feed the horse enough oats, some will pass through to the road for the sparrows."

[DockRat]

So nothing will happen to the rich but us middle class folk are screwed. The middle class will pay for everything and everyone.


Lol.

From a Liberal MSMBC website.

In fact, well-off people do shoulder a big share of the tax burden. Though households earning more than $1 million annually comprise just 0.3 percent of all taxpayers, they pay 20 percent of all federal taxes the government is projected to collect this year, according to the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan group that studies tax policy. The figures included income, payroll and estate taxes. In contrast, households earning $50,000 to $75,000 a year accounted for 12 percent of taxpayers and contributed 9 percent of federal taxes, the center's data showed. Some 46 percent of households pay no federal income tax at all, although they do pay payroll, excise and other taxes.

Many Americans see rich people as more likely to be intelligent (43 percent) and hard-working (42 percent) than average Americans.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48802418/ns/business-personal_finance/t/majority-us-say-rich-pay-too-little-taxes/#.UJ2Z8YVz0y4

My 1990 Honda just turned 160,000 miles. I could no way afford a $200 a car payment. Selling crap on craigslist trying to scape up the property taxes due on Dec 10th. So if you think I have money, that's a laugh. Using common sense and math tells anyone that the wealthy employ people. Business/money is leaving California because of high taxes, regs. Raise taxes and more will leave.
DR

[HawgZWylde]

Lol.

From a Liberal MSMBC website.

In fact, well-off people do shoulder a big share of the tax burden. Though households earning more than $1 million annually comprise just 0.3 percent of all taxpayers, they pay 20 percent of all federal taxes the government is projected to collect this year, according to the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan group that studies tax policy. The figures included income, payroll and estate taxes. In contrast, households earning $50,000 to $75,000 a year accounted for 12 percent of taxpayers and contributed 9 percent of federal taxes, the center's data showed. Some 46 percent of households pay no federal income tax at all, although they do pay payroll, excise and other taxes.

Many Americans see rich people as more likely to be intelligent (43 percent) and hard-working (42 percent) than average Americans.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48802418/ns/business-personal_finance/t/majority-us-say-rich-pay-too-little-taxes/#.UJ2Z8YVz0y4

My 1990 Honda just turned 160,000 miles. I could no way afford a $200 a car payment. Selling crap on craigslist trying to scape up the property taxes due on Dec 10th. So if you think I have money, that's a laugh. Using common sense and math tells anyone that the wealthy employ people. Business/money is leaving California because of high taxes, regs. Raise taxes and more will leave.
DR

"Using common sense"

There is no common sense amongst them DR. Even some of our "Legal profession" friends here seriously lack it. But they sure are good at shooting the messengers with their ridicule and rhetoric...

[etucker1959]

Lol.

From a Liberal MSMBC website.

In fact, well-off people do shoulder a big share of the tax burden. Though households earning more than $1 million annually comprise just 0.3 percent of all taxpayers, they pay 20 percent of all federal taxes the government is projected to collect this year, according to the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan group that studies tax policy. The figures included income, payroll and estate taxes. In contrast, households earning $50,000 to $75,000 a year accounted for 12 percent of taxpayers and contributed 9 percent of federal taxes, the center's data showed. Some 46 percent of households pay no federal income tax at all, although they do pay payroll, excise and other taxes.

Many Americans see rich people as more likely to be intelligent (43 percent) and hard-working (42 percent) than average Americans.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48802418/ns/business-personal_finance/t/majority-us-say-rich-pay-too-little-taxes/#.UJ2Z8YVz0y4

My 1990 Honda just turned 160,000 miles. I could no way afford a $200 a car payment. Selling crap on craigslist trying to scape up the property taxes due on Dec 10th. So if you think I have money, that's a laugh. Using common sense and math tells anyone that the wealthy employ people. Business/money is leaving California because of high taxes, regs. Raise taxes and more will leave.
DR
If the jobs leave, so will the people who are chasing the jobs. (Common Sense)

[etucker1959]

Lol.

From a Liberal MSMBC website.

In fact, well-off people do shoulder a big share of the tax burden. Though households earning more than $1 million annually comprise just 0.3 percent of all taxpayers, they pay 20 percent of all federal taxes the government is projected to collect this year, according to the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan group that studies tax policy. The figures included income, payroll and estate taxes. In contrast, households earning $50,000 to $75,000 a year accounted for 12 percent of taxpayers and contributed 9 percent of federal taxes, the center's data showed. Some 46 percent of households pay no federal income tax at all, although they do pay payroll, excise and other taxes.

Many Americans see rich people as more likely to be intelligent (43 percent) and hard-working (42 percent) than average Americans.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48802418/ns/business-personal_finance/t/majority-us-say-rich-pay-too-little-taxes/#.UJ2Z8YVz0y4

My 1990 Honda just turned 160,000 miles. I could no way afford a $200 a car payment. Selling crap on craigslist trying to scape up the property taxes due on Dec 10th. So if you think I have money, that's a laugh. Using common sense and math tells anyone that the wealthy employ people. Business/money is leaving California because of high taxes, regs. Raise taxes and more will leave.
DR

DocRat education is part of the solution that ails California.

[Skyler]

Sorry, but the rich don't produce jobs. That is a lie. How many main street shops are owned by rich folks?

I feel like posting a serious response for once...

How many of us here shop at Bob's General Market when we need new socks? Now how many Shop at Walmart and Target?

How many go to that dirty little hardware store in the ghetto that has had the same dusty pipe fittings in stock since 1970? Now how many of us go to Home Depot or Lowes?

When you are on your way to work and want a coffee, do you stop at the local dinner, take a seat at the booth, and have Flo serve you up a cup of joe? or do you drive through Starbucks and order a Vente Mocha Caramel Macchiato with a double shot?

Do you go to that sketchy liquor store where the guy was stabbed last month, or do you stop at a nice clean 7-11 or Circle-K?

I think you see what I'm getting at. Those "rich people" you speak of employ millions. And they usually offer better pay and benefits than their Mom & Pop equivalents (which allows their employees to positively affect the economy). Sure, small business is important too, but you can't discount the large corporations that bring us thousands of new jobs. Skewing the argument by saying nobody works for Kobe Bryant (hell, even Kobe Bryant doesn't work for Kobe Bryant), skims over the fact that the real "rich people" in California are not movie stars and musicians. They are the people who worked their way through college and to the top of their companies, often giving up family time, freedom, and hobbies (like fishing) to further their careers. They should be punished for this? $250,000 a year is not Beverly hills status. More like San Diego suburbs.

And if you don't think they will pack up and leave if this state keeps playing hardball, you fail to see the free enterprise model as a whole. Staying here simply won't be cost effective. Especially with competing states offering extremely attractive incentives for companies and employees to relocate. And in the end, you'll be stuck paying twice as much for everything from your beloved local Mom & Pop stores. Which of course, is a vicious cycle, as you will have far less to spend, and our already faltering economy will suffer further, making prices go up, forcing you to spend less, etc. etc. ad nauseum. These companies and executives are already experiencing marginal profits at best in this economy. Kicking them while they are down is only going to seal the deal.

[Skyler]

DocRat education is part of the solution that ails California.

Then why didn't you add the comma after "Dockrat?"

[HawgZWylde]

This sentence makes me appreciate teachers!

How does this one from natural Lefty, a public school educator make you feel;

"Yes, I will, etucker. Obama won, a lot of progressives were elected, a lot of right-wing nutbags were unelected, and proposition 30 won, helping save public education in California from a dire situation. On Tuesday, we proved that you can't buy or lie your way into political power, at least not anymore, so while conservatives are whining about the end of democracy, the collective voice of the people actually proved that we still have a democracy."

How's that for tolerance of traditional American views? If you don't think like them, you are a "right-wing nutbag". The "dire situation" this "educator" speaks of is cryptic for "we need more money for our pensions". The left just did exactly what this "educator" claimed we did, "buy or lie to keep political power", and I'll add they fear-mongered, used race and class warfare tactics, and covered-up, like Benghazi and fast & furious for instance. Who has controlled the state legislature for 35+years? Progressives. No one else to blame there, unlike our "educator" Natural lefty says.

And finally, this "educator" falsely claims we are a democracy when in fact we have a constitution based federal republic, not a "constitutional democracy" like they "teach" or shall I say indoctrinate our children with starting in 5th grade. It's in their social studies/history school book which coincidentally was banned by the Texas supreme court for being full of falsehoods. My son's college sociology "educator" actually campaigned for Obama in her classroom and ridiculed those who disagreed. An "educator" like lefty, is why I refused to vote for any tax hikes in the name of "better educating our children". Their fear-mongering is disgusting...

[HawgZWylde]

I feel like posting a serious response for once...

How many of us here shop at Bob's General Market when we need new socks? Now how many Shop at Walmart and Target?

How many go to that dirty little hardware store in the ghetto that has had the same dusty pipe fittings in stock since 1970? Now how many of us go to Home Depot or Lowes?

When you are on your way to work and want a coffee, do you stop at the local dinner, take a seat at the booth, and have Flo serve you up a cup of joe? or do you drive through Starbucks and order a Vente Mocha Caramel Macchiato with a double shot?

Do you go to that sketchy liquor store where the guy was stabbed last month, or do you stop at a nice clean 7-11 or Circle-K?

I think you see what I'm getting at. Those "rich people" you speak of employ millions. And they usually offer better pay and benefits than their Mom & Pop equivalents (which allows their employees to positively affect the economy). Sure, small business is important too, but you can't discount the large corporations that bring us thousands of new jobs. Skewing the argument by saying nobody works for Kobe Bryant (hell, even Kobe Bryant doesn't work for Kobe Bryant), skims over the fact that the real "rich people" in California are not movie stars and musicians. They are the people who worked their way through college and to the top of their companies, often giving up family time, freedom, and hobbies (like fishing) to further their careers. They should be punished for this? $250,000 a year is not Beverly hills status. More like San Diego suburbs.

And if you don't think they will pack up and leave if this state keeps playing hardball, you fail to see the free enterprise model as a whole. Staying here simply won't be cost effective. Especially with competing states offering extremely attractive incentives for companies and employees to relocate. And in the end, you'll be stuck paying twice as much for everything from your beloved local Mom & Pop stores. Which of course, is a vicious cycle, as you will have far less to spend, and our already faltering economy will suffer further, making prices go up, forcing you to spend less, etc. etc. ad nauseum. These companies and executives are already experiencing marginal profits at best in this economy. Kicking them while they are down is only going to seal the deal.

Caramel mocha frapp for me. Skyler, a good post based on strong common sense. As our last election just proved, common sense has been lost in modern society. Sad...

[Skyler]

If the jobs leave, so will the people who are chasing the jobs. (Common Sense)

Not if they can't afford to. Here is your assignment for the weekend, since you obviously aren't fishing:

Assume you have found a job in Texas, where the company you used to work for moved to.

Price an apartment in the greater Dallas Ft. Worth area big enough for a family of four. Include all security deposits and initial utility fees.

Price a u-haul for said trip, and account for how many trips back and forth it will take to move your household. Include fuel costs for both the rental vehicle and your family cars which will need to be driven there as well.

Add in the price of new registration for all vehicles, time off work for school enrollment for the kids, having to restock food stores, broken or lost items that need replacing, and other various errands and expenses that come with a new move.

Now tell me, how many average service type jobs afford such expenses? I doubt the manager of the local Applebee's can afford it. Not to mention family ties and obligations, which are generally far stronger anchors than financial ones. The majority of these people will not move. They will be unemployed, and the 47% will become the 67% (it's already almost there anyway in this state).

[DockRat]

DockRat, Education is part of the solution that ails California.

That's better etucker. :LOL:

[etucker1959]

Then why didn't you add the comma after "Dockrat?"

Skyler, If I could write my way out of a wet paper bag, I would have been a lawyer. (True Story)

[DockRat]

Things are really looking good for LA, Lol. :Rolls Eyes:
Then they wonder why they can't get a job ? :Confused:
The system is failing !
DR

LAUSD 2nd worst HS grad rate in US; CA ranks 41st among states

Grads
California graduation rates are starting to plummet, as the rest of the nation is slowly seeing an increase.

Education Week presents this online map which illustrates graduation rates around the country. Using 2007 data--the most current available--California ranks 41st in the nation with a high school graduation rate of 62.7%, nearly 10% lower than the 2002 level of 71.3%.

In a comparison three of the state’s top districts, Los Angeles Unified, Fresno Unified, and San Diego Unified, have graduation rates below the state average, with LAUSD winding up with the second worst graduation rate in the nation at 40.6%

http://californiaschildren.typepad.com/californias-children/2010/06/hs-grad-rates-plumet-in-ca.html

[etucker1959]

Caramel mocha frapp for me. Skyler, a good post based on strong common sense. As our last election just proved, common sense has been lost in modern society. Sad...

You guy's are forgetting we are a democracy, that means majority wins!!!!

[etucker1959]

Not if they can't afford to. Here is your assignment for the weekend, since you obviously aren't fishing:

Assume you have found a job in Texas, where the company you used to work for moved to.

Price an apartment in the greater Dallas Ft. Worth area big enough for a family of four. Include all security deposits and initial utility fees.

Price a u-haul for said trip, and account for how many trips back and forth it will take to move your household. Include fuel costs for both the rental vehicle and your family cars which will need to be driven there as well.

Add in the price of new registration for all vehicles, time off work for school enrollment for the kids, having to restock food stores, broken or lost items that need replacing, and other various errands and expenses that come with a new move.

Now tell me, how many average service type jobs afford such expenses? I doubt the manager of the local Applebee's can afford it. Not to mention family ties and obligations, which are generally far stronger anchors than financial ones. The majority of these people will not move. They will be unemployed, and the 47% will become the 67% (it's already almost there anyway in this state).

Skyler, I fish all the time, I don't write up any fish reports because of you and the mods.

[Natural Lefty]

These guys don't believe we have a democracy. Hawgzwylde stated as much in this thread. After all, they call it a "republic" (as in Republican) instead of a democracy (as in Democrat). But if we don't have a democracy, tell me, why do we vote?

By the way, I didn't tell my students to vote for Obama, although I knew that most of them would, anyway. I did tell them the importance of voting for proposition 30 though.

Fear mongering? Have you heard of projection, Hawgzwylde? That is when people attribute to others what that cannot accept about themselves. Conservatives seem to specialize in that.

I am trying to keep things on the up and up and positive. I don't see where fear enters the picture for me. The threat to our schools of cutbacks and closures that I described is merely stating the factual situation as I know it. Fear mongering is trying to make people afraid of imaginary, vague or highly improbable threats. The school situation is none of the above.

Speaking of fear mongering, it is very unlikely that more than a few rich people will move out of California. Rich people already live where they want to live. As for job creation, it is demand that creates jobs, not "supply" or rich people hiring workers. When people have money to spend and want to buy stuff, people will start businesses selling it, or those who already have businesses selling it, will hire more workers. To me, that is real common sense. I don't know what sort of inverted common sense world some of you guys live in.

ETucker, I would like to see your fishing reports.

[HawgZWylde]

These guys don't believe we have a democracy. Hawgzwylde stated as much in this thread. After all, they call it a "republic" (as in Republican) instead of a democracy (as in Democrat). But if we don't have a democracy, tell me, why do we vote?

By the way, I didn't tell my students to vote for Obama, although I knew that most of them would, anyway. I did tell them the importance of voting for proposition 30 though.

Fear mongering? Have you heard of projection, Hawgzwylde? That is when people attribute to others what that cannot accept about themselves. Conservatives seem to specialize in that.

I am trying to keep things on the up and up and positive. I don't see where fear enters the picture for me. The threat to our schools of cutbacks and closures that I described is merely stating the factual situation as I know it. Fear mongering is trying to make people afraid of imaginary, vague or highly improbable threats. The school situation is none of the above.

Speaking of fear mongering, it is very unlikely that more than a few rich people will move out of California. Rich people already live where they want to live. As for job creation, it is demand that creates jobs, not "supply" or rich people hiring workers. When people have money to spend and want to buy stuff, people will start businesses selling it, or those who already have businesses selling it, will hire more workers. To me, that is real common sense. I don't know what sort of inverted common sense world some of you guys live in.

ETucker, I would like to see your fishing reports.

Blatant misinformation and propaganda. I would expect nothing less from from a radical left educator such as yourself. To deny that we have a republic is to flat out lie. And then you use it to compare the name "republicans", and democracy as in democrats is pure rhetorical propaganda, and really disgusting coming from someone who "educates" our children.

Constitutional - a government by or operating under an authoritative document (constitution) that sets forth the system of fundamental laws and principles that determines the nature, functions, and limits of that government.

Federal republic - a state in which the powers of the central government are restricted and in which the component parts (states, colonies, or provinces) retain a degree of self-government; ultimate sovereign power rests with the voters who chose their governmental representatives.

Constitutional democracy - a form of government in which the sovereign power of the people is spelled out in a governing constitution.

Democracy - a form of government in which the supreme power is retained by the people, but which is usually exercised indirectly through a system of representation and delegated authority periodically renewed.

Socialism - a government in which the means of planning, producing, and distributing goods is controlled by a central government that theoretically seeks a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor; in actuality, most socialist governments have ended up being no more than dictatorships over workers by a ruling elite. Hugo Chavez anybody? Obama anybody?

All info can be found here. Once there, scroll down, it lists the types of governments around the globe. Take note of Venezuela, it's still listed as a "federal republic". We all know that the progressive liberals who moved "forward" in that country ended up with socialism and a dictator. And Gee, they still vote;

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2128.html

The United States is a constitution based federal republic, it's Bill of Rights guarantees strong democratic traditions based on English common law. A constitutional democracy, straight democracy, or social democracy are nothing more than socialism. You know that, and so do I. So, you want to call me a liar Lefty thus admitting you are a socialist?

[HawgZWylde]

You guy's are forgetting we are a democracy, that means majority wins!!!!


Wrong tucker. We have a constitution based federal republic. See both my posts to Natural Lefty. One on page 11, and one on this page...

[etucker1959]

Wrong tucker. We have a constitution based federal republic. See both my posts to Natural Lefty. One on page 11, and one on this page...

You mean we have Federalism, I didn't know that NOT. lol

[HawgZWylde]

You mean we have Federalism, I didn't know that NOT. lol

WTF are you talking about? No we do not, and that's NOT what I posted. Click on the CIA link I provided in my post to Lefty and educate yourself so you don't look so misinformed...

[Lady Quagga]

My God.

Folks we live in a republic. Don't make me defend Hawggy to prove this fact.

[HawgZWylde]

My God.

Folks we live in a republic. Don't make me defend Hawggy to prove this fact.

I don't need defending, but the Republic of the United States of America certainly does, as evidenced...

[Skyler]

My God.

Folks we live in a republic. Don't make me defend Hawggy to prove this fact.

Someone check the mercury in hell. I feel a cold snap coming on!

[Skyler]

As for job creation, it is demand that creates jobs, not "supply" or rich people hiring workers. When people have money to spend and want to buy stuff, people will start businesses selling it, or those who already have businesses selling it, will hire more workers. To me, that is real common sense. I don't know what sort of inverted common sense world some of you guys live in.

Explain what good demand is if your consumers can't afford your product? Economy goes down, consumers spend less, lowering demand. This prevents employers from hiring new workers, hurting the economy. Economy goes down, consumers spend less, lowering demand. This prevents employers from hiring new workers, hurting the economy. Economy goes down, consumers spend less, lowering demand. This prevents employers from hiring new workers, hurting the economy. Economy goes down, consumers spend less, lowering demand. This prevents employers from hiring new workers, hurting the economy. Economy goes down, consumers spend less, lowering demand. This prevents employers from hiring new workers, hurting the economy. Economy goes down, consumers spend less, lowering demand. This prevents employers from hiring new workers, hurting the economy. Economy goes down, consumers spend less, lowering demand. This prevents employers from hiring new workers, hurting the economy. Economy goes down, consumers spend less, lowering demand. This prevents employers from hiring new workers, hurting the economy. Economy goes down, consumers spend less, lowering demand. This prevents employers from hiring new workers, hurting the economy.

This is the exact cycle Greece just went through. Add in excessive welfare, taxation, and misappropriated public funds, and you have a recipe for disaster.

[HawgZWylde]

Explain what good demand is if your consumers can't afford your product? Economy goes down, consumers spend less, lowering demand. This prevents employers from hiring new workers, hurting the economy. Economy goes down, consumers spend less, lowering demand. This prevents employers from hiring new workers, hurting the economy. Economy goes down, consumers spend less, lowering demand. This prevents employers from hiring new workers, hurting the economy. Economy goes down, consumers spend less, lowering demand. This prevents employers from hiring new workers, hurting the economy. Economy goes down, consumers spend less, lowering demand. This prevents employers from hiring new workers, hurting the economy. Economy goes down, consumers spend less, lowering demand. This prevents employers from hiring new workers, hurting the economy. Economy goes down, consumers spend less, lowering demand. This prevents employers from hiring new workers, hurting the economy. Economy goes down, consumers spend less, lowering demand. This prevents employers from hiring new workers, hurting the economy. Economy goes down, consumers spend less, lowering demand. This prevents employers from hiring new workers, hurting the economy.

This is the exact cycle Greece just went through. Add in excessive welfare, taxation, and misappropriated public funds, and you have a recipe for disaster.

There's that thing called common sense again. Stunning how there are even those with PhD's or better that thoroughly lack it. And worse, they "educate" our kids. I have battled, or am battling the education system through 5 kids. Now my older kids know why and are doing the same with theirs...

[DEVOREFLYER]

The question now is what will the next four years look like economically?

One thing that has been overlooked on many fronts is that Obama had control of the House and the Senate when he first entered office in 2009. This control lead to the passing of ObamaCare, successive bailout programs for housing, automobiles, and the financial industry which flooded the economy, and financial markets, with dollars - a lot of dollars. Those injections, combined with a massively bombed out economy from the financial crisis, led to a sharp rebound in economic growth which was almost entirely centered around inventory restocking and a resumption of exported goods and services.

However, in 2010, Obama lost control of the House to the Republicans which has led to two subsequent years of political gridlock. That gridlock has resulted in very little progress in providing the fiscal policies necessary to support economic growth.
This lack of progress, which has clouded the planning ability for small businesses, combined with the recession in Europe and slowdown in China, has reduced the need for continued buildup of inventories as the exportation of goods and services has been slowing.

Rolling Over The Fiscal Cliff
Unfortunately for Obama he is now facing a "Congress Divided" with John Boehner at the helm swearing to be the first line of defense against further progress of Obama politics and spending programs. This does not bode well for the economy as the "Fiscal Cliff" looms large into the end of year. While it is hoped by many that Congress will work together to provide a short term fix by extending the cuts for another year or so - I would not be too sure about that possibility.

First of all, Obama has made it clear that he will raise taxes on "the rich" and if he gives in to extending the Bush tax cuts again it will not bode well with his constituents. Secondly, it is highly unlikely that the Republican controlled house will just go through with an extension of the cuts for a year as they are committed to reducing the deficit and government spending. Therefore, it is likely that they will be asking for cuts in exchange for changes to the tax code. This impasse, and inability to cooperate, will lead to another "debt ceiling debate" as we saw in 2011 which will ultimately lead to the economy rolling over "the cliff." This is no trivial matter as the economic impact of the increased taxes is roughly 3.5% of GDP in 2013. With the economy barely pushing 1.5% currently a 3.5% clip from that growth puts the economy into a very nasty recession. Of course, at that point, the Administration will start asking for further bailouts and spending programs to once again revive the economy.

What's Another $10 Trillion In Debt
Obama has already laid the foundation for his next four years of Presidency - more green jobs, tackle global warming, raise taxes on the rich and create jobs for the poor. That will come at a hefty price of further government spending. In the first four years of his term Obama increased the Federal Debt by more than 45%, however, with more than $5 Trillion spent in promoting everything from HAMP, HARP, Cash for Clunkers, GM, Chrysler, solar panels to housing, the economy only grew by 7.1% during the same time frame (or a total of $905 Billion.) In other words it took more than $5.60 of debt to create $1 of economic growth.

The amount of debt required today to create a single dollars' worth of GDP today is clearly unsustainable. However, the current Administration has been increasing Federal debt at a run rate of more than $1.2 Trillion annually to date. The understanding of the impact of increasing debt on economic growth is crucially important to understand.

The current Administration, however, is trapped into the belief that "big government" is the solution to the long term economic ills. However, a simple look at the impact of debt increases on economic growth tells us that this approach is misguided. Regardless, as stated above, further spending increases are going to rapidly run into an antagonistic House of Representatives who will push to block any additional spending programs.

While political gridlock has been a positive for the economy during past Administrations - this cycle is different. Rising debt levels, weak employment, declining wage growth and rising inflationary pressures all act as a retardant to economic growth. Economic growth at sub-2% levels is not strong enough to promote the kind of employment growth needed to absorb increases in the natural working age population which continues to shove an ever larger portion of the population into the masses that have "given up looking for work." In turn this increases the dependency on government support leading to further weakness in consumption and reduced demand which keeps employment weak.

While Bernanke has been flooding the system with monetary policy focused at suppressing interest rates it is fiscal policy from Congress that ultimately begins to clear the way for job creation. However, with the burden of ObamaCare just on the horizon, the threat of rising taxes and increased regulations covering everything from the financial industry to oil and gas - businesses are remaining defensive to protect weakening profitability.

While Obama will continue to increase the Federal Debt to well beyond 100% of GDP - the reality is that economic growth will continue to stall and muddle along at best. At the worst we are potentially facing another recession in the very near future. Either way the economy ahead will remain difficult and disappointing by almost any measure.

The Next Four Years
The next four years in the economy will most likely look a whole lot like the last two. Sluggish growth, lots of political infighting, and continued weak employment as business remain on the defensive.
For investors it will be a continued period of volatility, lower market returns, a falling dollar and continued artificial interventions by the Federal Reserve to suppress interest rates. The Fed's ability to push asset prices has most likely come to an end as prices have been stretched well above underlying valuation metrics particularly as the weakening global economy weighs on revenues and profitability.

Furthermore, the issue of the "fiscal cliff" by the end of the year puts the markets at risk of a sharp correction as positions are sold to lock in capital gains at lower tax rates. Dividend yielding stocks, due to the income chase, are trading at extremely high valuations and are set up for a sharp correction as well.

Lastly, the onset of a recession in 2013, will impact stock prices by at least 30% if not more. That correction will come swiftly.
Overall, the set up going forward looks like it has in the past couple of years. It is unlikely that Obama will move to the center and be more of a politician with the best interest of the economy at heart. It is also just as unlikely that the Republicans will back down and begin to cooperate with the Senate. I could be wrong, of course, and if I am then I will chance my investment posture accordingly. However, the weight of evidence is stacked in favor of "more of the same" which means less for you and me.