Fish stocking environmental impact?

[Hooked Up]

KABC news reports the California Department of Fish and Game possibly stopping the stocking of fish in privately owned lakes! Like Irvine/Corona/SARL etc.:Shocked: The State might also require a California fishing license to fish these lakes!?:Rolls Eyes: While Most FNN'ers have their state licenses, the DFG does NOT stock these privately owned lakes!:Evil: More info. on FNN homepage. @fishinglakes.com.:EyePop: The DFG says it's about "environmental impact"_I think it's about $$$$!:Sad: What do you think? Sorry if this has already been posted before?

[P.A.W.]

Well, if they will allow stocking to continue AFTER all the liscencing fees etc. have been ponied up, then it can be nothing else other than money.

[RTG]

Those private lakes are on the state water system. State water flows in and out of those lakes. They don't own the water therefore they have been getting away with not requiring fishing licenses for years. They have an "aquaculture permit" even though they don't raise their own fish. Sorry boys...time to pay the piper. By the way, this all came about by the lawsuit from the Center For Biological Diversity. So it ain't about the State making money.

[TheAsianGuy]

RTG is smacked on the head! It's about the State monitoring the high BOD, TSS, TDS, TOC, nitrates, and TPH from the privately owned lakes. Sorry to go technical on you guys. Aquacultural licenses only pertain to the discharge of pollution related to the fisheries. However, there are more coming off the privately owned lake than just the fishery's pollution. That's why DFG is so hard butt on state licensing mandate for all privately owned lakes. The money is not for the stocking of fishes. The money is for cleaning up the messes privately owned lakes (the bad ones) caused.

[Bassmaster Bob]

Maybe this will force these lakes to lower the price and I can actually go and try them, since there's no way I'm paying their current prices.

[seal]

Maybe this will force these lakes to lower the price and I can actually go and try them, since there's no way I'm paying their current prices.

Huh? Sorry Bob prices would go up not down.

[DarkShadow]

Those private lakes are on the state water system. State water flows in and out of those lakes. They don't own the water therefore they have been getting away with not requiring fishing licenses for years.

Looks like I'll be having to purchase my fishing license every year now. :-( Aww shucks.

[TheAsianGuy]

Looks like I'll be having to purchase my fishing license every year now. :-( Aww shucks.

Well, a fishing license will expand your horizon to fish other locations..rather than doing DarkShadow's ninja modes all these years..you can be called LightShade from here on in :LOL: Is that nick taken?

[sapdawg11]

Here's the deal, as quick and dirty as I can make it:

The "Center For Biological Diversity" is an eco-litigous group meaning that they make their money off of suing people, companies and the government for "environmental oversights". While protecting endangered species and sensitive habitats is without a doubt critically important, we are talking about a group behind many of "those" nightmare stories that you read about. Someone being sued and losing their home over a "possible" sighting of a kangaroo rat, the EPA rolling over in frivolous lawsuits and losing millions of your tax dollars, etc. etc.. This is a really well-known group not for what they do for the environment, but for their constant leaching off of the system and only settling when their pockets are fully lined with fresh new bills (over $1.1 MILLION in "legal settlement" in 2009 alone!). These are not good people. These are not "patrons of the environment". These are money hungry lawyers under the veil of a "green" name with an agenda focused only on an entirely different kind of green...money!!! Think I am lying or exaggerating? Then go ahead and read these articles...

Writers on the Range: Extreme green (http://www.summitdaily.com/article/20110602/COLUMNS/110609990/1078&ParentProfile=1055)

Chilton Ranch Lawsuit (http://www.chiltonranch.com/chilton_ranch_lawsuit.html)

more background to Chilton Ranch Lawsuit (http://www.chiltonranch.com/chilton_ranch_lawsuit_history.html)

And there are many more stories just like those!!! It's truly unbelievable and it absolutely PAINS me to think that my tax dollars are being spent to feed these leaches. Ridiculous.


The CFBD originally sued the DFG noting that while farm raised fish having a negative impact on endangered species had never been documented, hatchery raised fish pose an inherent, unnatural risk to endangered and protected species in the surrounding areas and that this risk needs to assessed and mitigated if necessary. This includes both the time the fish spend in the hatchery as well as the time they spend in the bodies of water in which they are planted. Water quality is not at all the issue here. After filing the initial lawsuit, the CFBD subsequently included private hatcheries, private lakes, and just for s___s and giggles, they also decided to make it a sweeping rampage that would include ANYBODY that maintain fish in their lakes into the lawsuit. It's not just Irvine/SARL/Corona/LNL. It's Perris, Silverwood, DVL, Skinner, Barrett, your local golf course, AND YOU!!! Have a pond in your backyard with fish in it? Well, you'll have to hire a certified biologist to come onto your property so that he/she can do an environmental assessment. If he/she finds that in ANY way, your pond interacts with an endangered or protected species (think about what "interacts" means and you'll see that its a very loosey goosey term that lawyers can have all kinds of fun with), you'll be subject to further assessment and perhaps having to mitigate. Mitigation may include draining your pond or killing your fish, OR, even better, it could include now having to care and set up a permanent mitigation site on your property!!! Do all of that, and yup, YOU'LL STILL NEED A FISHING LICENSE TO FISH IN YOUR OWN BACKYARD!!!!! Not to mention that DFG will be welcome on your property whenever they wish for "inspection" and nope, they won't be stocking any fish. You better not be fishing with more than 2 rods (and you better have a stamp for the second one. You can keep all of your license stuff in the kitchen drawer and grab it when they come knocking!)!!!

But maybe you're like me and you don't own a pond. You may be thinking, "Well, I buy a license every year and I don't mind paying a few extra bucks to go fish at a pay lake" right? WRONG! This is NOT a simple "raise the prices at the gate" type situation. A survey conducted during this process showed that more than 60% of pay lake attendees do not have a fishing license! If even half of those people stayed home because they had to purchase a license for mom, dad, grandma, grandpa, etc., your favorite pay lake will be forced to close it's doors. And then you can throw on top of that the insane assessment and mitigation fees and really drive in the nail in the coffin. This is without a doubt a "businesses shut down and ALL California stocking programs are shut down" type situation. And that would be a best case scenario. Imagine, with the state budget being the fiasco that it is, that Lake Perris, Silverwood, or any of those bodies of water that we all love to visit are now hit with a 1-2 punch of: 1) they need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on biological assessment and possibly millions on mitigation and 2) the fish that they used to plant are simply no longer available. Thinking about what that would do to the southern California fishing scene sickens me. I can't even begin to picture it and I really would rather not.

This really is a big deal and can absolutely be thought of as freshwater fishing's version of the MLPA. Everyone that can be, needs to be involved as this will potentially hit not only the pay lakes, but everyone involved in this industry from tackle shop owners, manufacturers and without a doubt, anglers. I'm outraged by all of it and would like nothing better but to see these knuckleheads get what they deserve. Get informed, let your friends know what is going on and let's shut these bastards down. It's not even close to being too late. By being informed and vocal we can knock this one out of the park!!!

Thanks for reading. ***end rant***

[RTG]

Here's the deal, as quick and dirty as I can make it:

The "Center For Biological Diversity" is an eco-litigous group meaning that they make their money off of suing people, companies and the government for "environmental oversights". While protecting endangered species and sensitive habitats is without a doubt critically important, we are talking about a group behind many of "those" nightmare stories that you read about. Someone being sued and losing their home over a "possible" sighting of a kangaroo rat, the EPA rolling over in frivolous lawsuits and losing millions of your tax dollars, etc. etc.. This is a really well-known group not for what they do for the environment, but for their constant leaching off of the system and only settling when their pockets are fully lined with fresh new bills (over $1.1 MILLION in "legal settlement" in 2009 alone!). These are not good people. These are not "patrons of the environment". These are money hungry lawyers under the veil of a "green" name with an agenda focused only on an entirely different kind of green...money!!! Think I am lying or exaggerating? Then go ahead and read these articles...

Writers on the Range: Extreme green (http://www.summitdaily.com/article/20110602/COLUMNS/110609990/1078&ParentProfile=1055)

Chilton Ranch Lawsuit (http://www.chiltonranch.com/chilton_ranch_lawsuit.html)

more background to Chilton Ranch Lawsuit (http://www.chiltonranch.com/chilton_ranch_lawsuit_history.html)

And there are many more stories just like those!!! It's truly unbelievable and it absolutely PAINS me to think that my tax dollars are being spent to feed these leaches. Ridiculous.


The CFBD originally sued the DFG noting that while farm raised fish having a negative impact on endangered species had never been documented, hatchery raised fish pose an inherent, unnatural risk to endangered and protected species in the surrounding areas and that this risk needs to assessed and mitigated if necessary. This includes both the time the fish spend in the hatchery as well as the time they spend in the bodies of water in which they are planted. Water quality is not at all the issue here. After filing the initial lawsuit, the CFBD subsequently included private hatcheries, private lakes, and just for s___s and giggles, they also decided to make it a sweeping rampage that would include ANYBODY that maintain fish in their lakes into the lawsuit. It's not just Irvine/SARL/Corona/LNL. It's Perris, Silverwood, DVL, Skinner, Barrett, your local golf course, AND YOU!!! Have a pond in your backyard with fish in it? Well, you'll have to hire a certified biologist to come onto your property so that he/she can do an environmental assessment. If he/she finds that in ANY way, your pond interacts with an endangered or protected species (think about what "interacts" means and you'll see that its a very loosey goosey term that lawyers can have all kinds of fun with), you'll be subject to further assessment and perhaps having to mitigate. Mitigation may include draining your pond or killing your fish, OR, even better, it could include now having to care and set up a permanent mitigation site on your property!!! Do all of that, and yup, YOU'LL STILL NEED A FISHING LICENSE TO FISH IN YOUR OWN BACKYARD!!!!! Not to mention that DFG will be welcome on your property whenever they wish for "inspection" and nope, they won't be stocking any fish. You better not be fishing with more than 2 rods (and you better have a stamp for the second one. You can keep all of your license stuff in the kitchen drawer and grab it when they come knocking!)!!!

But maybe you're like me and you don't own a pond. You may be thinking, "Well, I buy a license every year and I don't mind paying a few extra bucks to go fish at a pay lake" right? WRONG! This is NOT a simple "raise the prices at the gate" type situation. A survey conducted during this process showed that more than 60% of pay lake attendees do not have a fishing license! If even half of those people stayed home because they had to purchase a license for mom, dad, grandma, grandpa, etc., your favorite pay lake will be forced to close it's doors. And then you can throw on top of that the insane assessment and mitigation fees and really drive in the nail in the coffin. This is without a doubt a "businesses shut down and ALL California stocking programs are shut down" type situation. And that would be a best case scenario. Imagine, with the state budget being the fiasco that it is, that Lake Perris, Silverwood, or any of those bodies of water that we all love to visit are now hit with a 1-2 punch of: 1) they need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on biological assessment and possibly millions on mitigation and 2) the fish that they used to plant are simply no longer available. Thinking about what that would do to the southern California fishing scene sickens me. I can't even begin to picture it and I really would rather not.

This really is a big deal and can absolutely be thought of as freshwater fishing's version of the MLPA. Everyone that can be, needs to be involved as this will potentially hit not only the pay lakes, but everyone involved in this industry from tackle shop owners, manufacturers and without a doubt, anglers. I'm outraged by all of it and would like nothing better but to see these knuckleheads get what they deserve. Get informed, let your friends know what is going on and let's shut these bastards down. It's not even close to being too late. By being informed and vocal we can knock this one out of the park!!!

Thanks for reading. ***end rant***

Pretty accurate, but wrong about one thing. You do not, and will not, need a fishing license to fish on a private lake or pond that is NOT hydrologically connected to state waters. Period. The Corona Lakes and Santa Ana River Lakes of the state are hydrologically connected and that is why a fishing license will be required.
If you own a lake or pond that is wholly located within private property, and is not connected to a river, stream or creek, then you do not need a fishing license to fish there. Look it up yourself in the Fish and Game Code.
Don't blame Fish and Game, blame these private fishing operators who have been skirting the system for years so you can catch fish in a heavily stocked lake, raised to grossly over-sized proportions so you can pretend to be a real fisherman.

[sapdawg11]

Pretty accurate, but wrong about one thing. You do not, and will not, need a fishing license to fish on a private lake or pond that is NOT hydrologically connected to state waters. Period. The Corona Lakes and Santa Ana River Lakes of the state are hydrologically connected and that is why a fishing license will be required.
If you own a lake or pond that is wholly located within private property, and is not connected to a river, stream or creek, then you do not need a fishing license to fish there. Look it up yourself in the Fish and Game Code.
Don't blame Fish and Game, blame these private fishing operators who have been skirting the system for years so you can catch fish in a heavily stocked lake, raised to grossly over-sized proportions so you can pretend to be a real fisherman.

Not sure where you read my mention of any "hydrological connectivity" requirement (which in the current regulations can be found in CA DFG code 7145.b.1) or a lack thereof, yet still it turns out backyard ponds commonly are not completely isolated and are connected to state water through fluvial input/output (permanent or ephemeral), groundwater (one of the most important sources of "state water" and unless you have an engineered geotechnical barrier in your pond, your pond contributes to groundwater which contributes to state streams, lakes, reservoirs, etc.), etc. and thus, with this NEW piece of legislation (not in the DFG code yet) that for the first time will require fishing licenses on privately owned lakes and ponds, who knows where that line will be drawn.

But appears that the defining line already has been drawn and there is NO hydrological connectivity requirement in this new piece of brilliance which is written to include ALL "waters of the state". What does "waters of the state" mean? Well let's look at the DFG code! As per DFG code 89.1 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=fgc&group=00001-01000&file=1-89.1) a water of the state is defined as "'waters of this state,' and 'state waters' have the same meaning as 'waters of the state' as defined in subdivision (e) of Section 13050 of the Water Code." which defines "waters of the state" as "any surface water or groundwater, including saline waters, within the boundaries of the state." (Water Code 13050 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=wat&group=13001-14000&file=13050-13051)). Zero hydrological connectivity requirement.

But in reality, there are probably very few people on this forum that actually own a pond and thus my description of the process was a bit facetious and was done to point out that this is an entirely invasive and very poorly defined pursuit performed by a very corrupt group in the CFBD that has already costed you, me and every other tax payer thousands of dollars. Fishermen and a state already on the brink of financial collapse cannot afford to entertain the desires of a sue-happy organization like the CFBD. Let them win and think they will stop there?? How about their rampant attempts to put every species they can name on an endangered species list...

Wildlife at Risk Face Long Line at U.S. Agency (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/science/earth/21species.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&sq=Amid%20flood%20of%20petitions,%20endangered%20s pecies%20listings%20stall&st=cse&scp=1)

...seems that "native" fish would fit very nicely on that list! I can see it already..."Streams closed to fishing as DFG faces lawsuit from CFBD over newly protected species of fish." It has a certain ring to it...

Whether or not you like fishing at the pay lakes is entirely your call, but if you are fishing freshwater in southern California, your experience is greatly improved by a century old fish stocking program that has yet to a documented negative impact on surrounding ecosystems. The fishing at BBL, DVL, Perris, Skinner, etc etc are as great of places as they are because they ALL plant fish, both the DFG as well as private hatcheries. This goes through and you will see a fundamental shift for the worse in the quality of fishing at those places just as you will see at the private pay lakes. Still don't care? How about a major blow to fishing as a big contributor to our economy in a state in constant budget crisis?? Still don't care??? Ok, go fishing. Because that's what I'm about to do...

[Hooked Up]

Well, thanks for the 411! I figured there could be more to it then I would know! Just seems strange that it would take the "state" 30 years to take some kind of action? Especially with all the financial problems everywhere! It does seem like it is going to cost someone/everyone more money down the line? I guess We will have to wait and see what happens? Thanks!

[fish-o-haulic]

Not sure where you read my mention of any "hydrological connectivity" requirement (which in the current regulations can be found in CA DFG code 7145.b.1) or a lack thereof, yet still it turns out backyard ponds commonly are not completely isolated and are connected to state water through fluvial input/output (permanent or ephemeral), groundwater (one of the most important sources of "state water" and unless you have an engineered geotechnical barrier in your pond, your pond contributes to groundwater which contributes to state streams, lakes, reservoirs, etc.), etc. and thus, with this NEW piece of legislation (not in the DFG code yet) that for the first time will require fishing licenses on privately owned lakes and ponds, who knows where that line will be drawn.

But appears that the defining line already has been drawn and there is NO hydrological connectivity requirement in this new piece of brilliance which is written to include ALL "waters of the state". What does "waters of the state" mean? Well let's look at the DFG code! As per DFG code 89.1 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=fgc&group=00001-01000&file=1-89.1) a water of the state is defined as "'waters of this state,' and 'state waters' have the same meaning as 'waters of the state' as defined in subdivision (e) of Section 13050 of the Water Code." which defines "waters of the state" as "any surface water or groundwater, including saline waters, within the boundaries of the state." (Water Code 13050 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=wat&group=13001-14000&file=13050-13051)). Zero hydrological connectivity requirement.

But in reality, there are probably very few people on this forum that actually own a pond and thus my description of the process was a bit facetious and was done to point out that this is an entirely invasive and very poorly defined pursuit performed by a very corrupt group in the CFBD that has already costed you, me and every other tax payer thousands of dollars. Fishermen and a state already on the brink of financial collapse cannot afford to entertain the desires of a sue-happy organization like the CFBD. Let them win and think they will stop there?? How about their rampant attempts to put every species they can name on an endangered species list...

Wildlife at Risk Face Long Line at U.S. Agency (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/science/earth/21species.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&sq=Amid%20flood%20of%20petitions,%20endangered%20s pecies%20listings%20stall&st=cse&scp=1)

...seems that "native" fish would fit very nicely on that list! I can see it already..."Streams closed to fishing as DFG faces lawsuit from CFBD over newly protected species of fish." It has a certain ring to it...

Whether or not you like fishing at the pay lakes is entirely your call, but if you are fishing freshwater in southern California, your experience is greatly improved by a century old fish stocking program that has yet to a documented negative impact on surrounding ecosystems. The fishing at BBL, DVL, Perris, Skinner, etc etc are as great of places as they are because they ALL plant fish, both the DFG as well as private hatcheries. This goes through and you will see a fundamental shift for the worse in the quality of fishing at those places just as you will see at the private pay lakes. Still don't care? How about a major blow to fishing as a big contributor to our economy in a state in constant budget crisis?? Still don't care??? Ok, go fishing. Because that's what I'm about to do...

Thanks alot spawdawg for all the info, so how can we help combat this problem?

[darla]

Sounds like bulltish!!!

[sapdawg11]

Well, thanks for the 411! I figured there could be more to it then I would know! Just seems strange that it would take the "state" 30 years to take some kind of action? Especially with all the financial problems everywhere! It does seem like it is going to cost someone/everyone more money down the line? I guess We will have to wait and see what happens? Thanks!

No problem Hooked Up! And nope, we don't have to wait and see what happens, we can make things happen!! This is absolutely one that we can still walk away from as winners.


Thanks alot spawdawg for all the info, so how can we help combat this problem?

Not a problem f-o-h!!! The group at the front line in this battle is CARF (California Association for Recreational Fishing). There website can be found at savecalfishing.org (http://www.savecalfishing.org). They have a ton of information on what's been going on on their website that will help with step 1...GET INFORMED!! Take that information and share it with the masses and you've accomplished step 2...SPREAD THE WORD. If you want to support with your wallet, you can become a member of CARF for $35. They send you updates on the process, links to form letters that take 2 seconds to email government officials and things of that nature. Really great organization that really has stood firm on resolving this issue. I'm stoked to support them. Do what you can, but without a doubt be sure to accomplish at least steps 1 and 2 above!!!


Sounds like bulltish!!!

It sure does darla, it sure does!

[fishtales]

RTG is smacked on the head! It's about the State monitoring the high BOD, TSS, TDS, TOC, nitrates, and TPH from the privately owned lakes. Sorry to go technical on you guys. Aquacultural licenses only pertain to the discharge of pollution related to the fisheries. However, there are more coming off the privately owned lake than just the fishery's pollution. That's why DFG is so hard butt on state licensing mandate for all privately owned lakes. The money is not for the stocking of fishes. The money is for cleaning up the messes privately owned lakes (the bad ones) caused.

Just curious, what lakes are you talking about?

[fishtales]

I for one, am tired of these lunatic environmentalists. I have read articles about homeowners on the East Coast being sued and losing their homes because of an endangered something or other. One reads about this sort of stuff happening almost daily. IMHO, the enviros blame human activity for everything and as they taking out their blame, they are ruining lives via people losing their livelihoods, their property and now fishing, for God's sake!!

I've fished all my life, since I was 4 years old and NOW they're doing this??? I am outraged!!

I hope you guys and gals will call Sacramento and get involved.

I would dearly love to see people all over this country who have been hurt get organized and go on the attack and put these bastards in their place.

[tacklejunkie]

Looks like I'll be having to purchase my fishing license every year now. :-( Aww shucks.
I knew you were poaching all these years.
I'm disappointed. Really, I am. =\
I'm calling DFG on you too.

[fish-o-haulic]

I feel your pain i cant even imagine a world without fishing. Nope still cant imagine it, its kinda unbeleivable that fishing could be crippled to this degree. should fishing be crippled to this degree in california i say all fisherman move to another state, to show california a quite plain and simple F*** you.

[TheAsianGuy]

I for one, am tired of these lunatic environmentalists. I have read articles about homeowners on the East Coast being sued and losing their homes because of an endangered something or other. One reads about this sort of stuff happening almost daily. IMHO, the enviros blame human activity for everything and as they taking out their blame, they are ruining lives via people losing their livelihoods, their property and now fishing, for God's sake!!

I've fished all my life, since I was 4 years old and NOW they're doing this??? I am outraged!!

I hope you guys and gals will call Sacramento and get involved.

I would dearly love to see people all over this country who have been hurt get organized and go on the attack and put these bastards in their place.

Hey hey..I'm an environmental scientist here..not a lunatic to be precise :LOL: A mad scientist..yes..lunatic..may getting there sooner or later. However, RTG pointed out correctly that there are group, we called them NGOs (non-governmental organizations) caused problem for everyone by performing frivolous lawsuits that don't go anywhere, and lined their pockets with blood money and bribes. I'll support Inland Coastkeeper, as well as the main HQ Coastkeepers. Okay, toss in the NRDC too. But that's pretty much it. Everyone else seem to be bullcraps to me.


Just curious, what lakes are you talking about?

Take a shot. Anyone and everyone of them.

[fishtales]

[QUOTE=TheAsianGuy;568902]Hey hey..I'm an environmental scientist here..not a lunatic to be precise :LOL: A mad scientist..yes..lunatic..may getting there sooner or later. However, RTG pointed out correctly that there are group, we called them NGOs (non-governmental organizations) caused problem for everyone by performing frivolous lawsuits that don't go anywhere, and lined their pockets with blood money and bribes. I'll support Inland Coastkeeper, as well as the main HQ Coastkeepers. Okay, toss in the NRDC too. But that's pretty much it. Everyone else seem to be bullcraps to me.

NRDC or Natural Resource Defense Council is the group that rammed through the MLPA's to shut down a good percentage of fishable ocean water. Did you know that Sunoco Oil gave NRDC 11 million dollars to assist in implementing (ramming through) the MLPA's. Gee, I wonder why an oil company would donate money to an environmental group? BTW, that was in one year alone, last time I looked which was in 2002 or 2003 or thereabouts.

[TheAsianGuy]

NRDC or Natural Resource Defense Council is the group that rammed through the MLPA's to shut down a good percentage of fishable ocean water. Did you know that Sunoco Oil gave NRDC 11 million dollars to assist in implementing (ramming through) the MLPA's. Gee, I wonder why an oil company would donate money to an environmental group? BTW, that was in one year alone, last time I looked which was in 2002 or 2003 or thereabouts.

Looks like you found the "Money will buy anything" clause for any group/person. Welcome to the world of politics. It's all about favoring the lesser of the evil out there. I don't like politics and greed. Yet, I'm just one guy that stands against the tide in the crazy torrent. I got mowed down more time than I could count. Once again, I merely bend like a water grass towards the current of lesser evil to get things done. Don't shoot the messenger? :LOL: