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View Full Version : Green Valley Lake Opening Day!



troutman3
05-17-2010, 07:37 AM
Once again the claims of being stocked with big Jess Ranch Trout seem to be a mystery as nobody caught one That I or anyone I talked too! Loads of 6 to 8 inch state stock fish came out but you can catch these free at local lakes. Maybe if everyone stops going there they will get the message?

CTFISHER
05-17-2010, 10:44 AM
I was there opening day and caught a bunch of state trout n managed to pull two Jess Ranch ruby reds out that were about two pounds each. We were told the Jess Ranch stocking didn't get in til late the night before.

viperman100
05-17-2010, 04:51 PM
Thats exactly why I stopped going there, higher prices smaller fish. That just doesnt make sense, I remember when they used to stock the big whitewater trout, we would come out of there with a couple 3+lbs fish. Now you can catch state fish all day long but nothing worht the price tag.

goodguy
05-18-2010, 07:38 AM
The lake for sure has gone down in fish quality/quantity in the last few years...

AngryAgent
05-18-2010, 09:29 AM
You guys are crazy..

Last year was a great year for GVL. I don't know how many fish I caught that were 3-5lbs. Because you guys didn't catch a bunch of fish you're bad mouthing a quality operation. Sometimes you catch and sometimes you don't. My buddy that posts right here on FNN caught a 3lb ruby on opening day! He said himself that it was a very slow day and if you fish enough you know that sometimes you're not going to hang anything on certain days. They are going to be stocking Jess Ranch this year and Calaveras trout which are both quality fish. GIve it a chance before you start whining and bad mouthing them. Like I said last year they stocked the hell outta it and I hung so many 3-5lb fish that I couldn't keep track. Not only that but I caught a few big browns too and was even in WON with a quality brown. If you don't like the price don't go but don't come on here and spread a bunch of crap because you had a ruff day of fishing or you didn't like what you caught. For Christ's sake the lake record was caught last year at 14.7lbs!!!

Here is something else to take into consideration...
There were big fires up there and after they put out the fires we haven't had that much rain. This year we have been hammered with rain and a lot of that area where the fire was burning has run off into the lake. That will also take it's toll on the fishing until the water clears up a bit. I have seen the water this year and it is a bit dirty from what it was last year. This is the first stocking of the season and you haven't even given the lake a chance to turn on but are already condemning it to be a crappy overpriced lake. You guys are wrong for that.

goodguy
05-18-2010, 01:04 PM
You guys are crazy..

Last year was a great year for GVL. I don't know how many fish I caught that were 3-5lbs. Because you guys didn't catch a bunch of fish you're bad mouthing a quality operation. Sometimes you catch and sometimes you don't. My buddy that posts right here on FNN caught a 3lb ruby on opening day! He said himself that it was a very slow day and if you fish enough you know that sometimes you're not going to hang anything on certain days. They are going to be stocking Jess Ranch this year and Calaveras trout which are both quality fish. GIve it a chance before you start whining and bad mouthing them. Like I said last year they stocked the hell outta it and I hung so many 3-5lb fish that I couldn't keep track. Not only that but I caught a few big browns too and was even in WON with a quality brown. If you don't like the price don't go but don't come on here and spread a bunch of crap because you had a ruff day of fishing or you didn't like what you caught. For Christ's sake the lake record was caught last year at 14.7lbs!!!

Here is something else to take into consideration...
There were big fires up there and after they put out the fires we haven't had that much rain. This year we have been hammered with rain and a lot of that area where the fire was burning has run off into the lake. That will also take it's toll on the fishing until the water clears up a bit. I have seen the water this year and it is a bit dirty from what it was last year. This is the first stocking of the season and you haven't even given the lake a chance to turn on but are already condemning it to be a crappy overpriced lake. You guys are wrong for that.

All I know is as early as 2-3 years ago I was pulling quality and quantity out of the place most times I went. I fished it a few times every summer for years and usually it was insane. Now the last 3 times I've been it has been slow and did not see many catching a whole lot of anything especially of any size. I'm not whining or bad mouthing so calm down turbo. I'm just stating my personal experience. Take it down a notch...

TopwaterBassin
05-18-2010, 01:17 PM
So, what do they charge to fish GVL.......I haven't been up there in years and I think it was like $5 back then. On another note, any word on the BASS bite up there?

viperman100
05-18-2010, 07:47 PM
All I know is as early as 2-3 years ago I was pulling quality and quantity out of the place most times I went. I fished it a few times every summer for years and usually it was insane. Now the last 3 times I've been it has been slow and did not see many catching a whole lot of anything especially of any size. I'm not whining or bad mouthing so calm down turbo. I'm just stating my personal experience. Take it down a notch...

agree with you totally, it would be crap that I was talking had I made this up, but I have personally not done well there at all in the past 3 years therefore why on earth would I speak well of it, this is my personal experience, maybe you and your friend with the record trout are better fisherman than me and thats why you catch fish there and I dont but I'm certainly not going to lie and say its great if it has not been for me. Everyones post here is just their experience so take it easy on the aditude buddy.

AngryAgent
05-18-2010, 08:00 PM
All I know is as early as 2-3 years ago I was pulling quality and quantity out of the place most times I went. I fished it a few times every summer for years and usually it was insane. Now the last 3 times I've been it has been slow and did not see many catching a whole lot of anything especially of any size. I'm not whining or bad mouthing so calm down turbo. I'm just stating my personal experience. Take it down a notch...

Names not turbo there badboy, once again you're basing your argument off of catching and if that is what you want then go to the kiddie pond at Jess Ranch and you can catch as many as you want to your hearts desire. I have been to GVL many days that have not been that great but that is part of fishing anywhere. To say that a lake isn't stocking with what they are claiming is bold just because you aren't catching them. My point was more towards those comments. I have personal knowledge of what goes into that lake and what they advertise is what they are putting into it. If you are having a hard time catching them there keep trying or go somewhere else but don't bash a lake that has quality people running it, a great reputation for it's quality fish stockings and surrounded by a beautiful forest that is the closest thing to getting away to the Sierra's as anything else locally. Trying to get people to stop going because you "think" that they aren't stocking what they are advertising isn't cool period and the internet can quickly make bad of something that really isn't. Your comment about "the lake has gone down in fish quality/quantity" is based off of your bias claims that you haven't caught the same amount of fish as in years passed. I was up there last year and on certain days got into them just as good as I did 5 years ago and on other days couldn't get bit. The "quantity" of fish is still being stocked the same, and the "quality" you speak of I think is even better then in years past as the Jess Ranch trout are some of the finest hatchery fish available. This is the same old tired song and dance of guys who go and don't catch who revert to internet bashing.


agree with you totally, it would be crap that I was talking had I made this up, but I have personally not done well there at all in the past 3 years therefore why on earth would I speak well of it, this is my personal experience, maybe you and your friend with the record trout are better fisherman than me and thats why you catch fish there and I dont but I'm certainly not going to lie and say its great if it has not been for me. Everyones post here is just their experience so take it easy on the aditude buddy.

No really saying that they are lying about what they are stocking isn't just an opinion IMO..


So, what do they charge to fish GVL.......I haven't been up there in years and I think it was like $5 back then. On another note, any word on the BASS bite up there?

Bass were biting when there was still ice on the lake and they couldn't even get trout to bite! There is some toad bass in that lake. I have hooked crappie more times then I can count there in a boat and watched big bass follow them all the way to the boat. I have been on a bass kick myself lately and will be up there soon to get after them. Good luck if you go.

viperman100
05-18-2010, 08:32 PM
I have seen threads like this get real childish real quick so this is my last post on this thread, I never said they were lying about what they stock there, infact I went out of my way to repeat myself in saying my post is based on my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

mhughes55
05-18-2010, 09:11 PM
I was up there on Saturday it was on the slow side but i did get a few jess ranch fish. I was talking to Bob the lake manger he said the water was still pretty cold at 48, that could have something to do with it. On the stocking they put in alpers for labor day last year. I would rather catch an alper than a lassen or tailwalker which you pay at least 15 at corona or sarl.

AngryAgent
05-18-2010, 10:28 PM
Thats exactly why I stopped going there, higher prices smaller fish. That just doesnt make sense, I remember when they used to stock the big whitewater trout, we would come out of there with a couple 3+lbs fish. Now you can catch state fish all day long but nothing worht the price tag.


I have seen threads like this get real childish real quick so this is my last post on this thread, I never said they were lying about what they stock there, infact I went out of my way to repeat myself in saying my post is based on my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

I highlighted where your personal experience doesn't count because you're implying something different by saying, "higher prices smaller fish, I remember when they used to stock big whitewater". Once again, they still do stock the bigger fish. Problem is that people go to a lake and do well a few times then they expect that lake to produce the same way it did the previous times. The fish are in there I promise but for whatever reason it's just not happening for you and the others that are complaining. There are a number of reasons why this could be happening and as I have stated before I think the water is full of the runoff from the fire right now and the fires from last year with all the ash in the air didn't help the bite either. I personally don't know how you fish and I can't speak on your skill, you are probably a fairly skilled angler who just hasn't had the greatest luck as of late but be careful how you word your posts in the future because you implied something completely different then just your personal experience. Good luck to you in the future.

Trout 1
05-18-2010, 10:40 PM
You guys are crazy..

Last year was a great year for GVL. I don't know how many fish I caught that were 3-5lbs. Because you guys didn't catch a bunch of fish you're bad mouthing a quality operation. Sometimes you catch and sometimes you don't. My buddy that posts right here on FNN caught a 3lb ruby on opening day! He said himself that it was a very slow day and if you fish enough you know that sometimes you're not going to hang anything on certain days. They are going to be stocking Jess Ranch this year and Calaveras trout which are both quality fish. GIve it a chance before you start whining and bad mouthing them. Like I said last year they stocked the hell outta it and I hung so many 3-5lb fish that I couldn't keep track. Not only that but I caught a few big browns too and was even in WON with a quality brown. If you don't like the price don't go but don't come on here and spread a bunch of crap because you had a ruff day of fishing or you didn't like what you caught. For Christ's sake the lake record was caught last year at 14.7lbs!!!

Here is something else to take into consideration...
There were big fires up there and after they put out the fires we haven't had that much rain. This year we have been hammered with rain and a lot of that area where the fire was burning has run off into the lake. That will also take it's toll on the fishing until the water clears up a bit. I have seen the water this year and it is a bit dirty from what it was last year. This is the first stocking of the season and you haven't even given the lake a chance to turn on but are already condemning it to be a crappy overpriced lake. You guys are wrong for that.

Totally AGREE with you... Last year was a epic season for me lots of 3-5lbers and even this.....
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae166/Trout1994/DSCN9759.jpg
9lbs 11ozs!!!!! Bob is a great manger and Im glad to hear hes back. I cant wait to get up there for a slay day...
BTW AA those browns u got were NICE!!!! This pic was also in WON the fron page!!

Trout 1

viperman100
05-18-2010, 11:26 PM
I told myself I wouldnt do this but here we go.
the highlighted areas only:
1. They do charge more now than in the past. I used to pay 7 now they charge 15. THATS MORE.
2. I have caught only small state fish, again notice where I said you may be a better fisherman than me but I'm not going to lie, thats all I have caught my last 4-5 trips there, making this statement a fact based on my experiences there!
3. They no longer stock whitewater hatchery trout, they stock mt lassen and jess ranch, making this statement also a fact!

Like I have said several times before I cannot tell you how others have done there only how I have done sorry I suck at fishing this lake, I do very well at the lakes that I frequent but my posts are true based on what I have experienced there. STOP LOOKING AT WHAT MAY BE IMPLIED AND READ THE PLAIN ENGLISH, I HAVE NEVER CAUGHT JESS RANCH TROUT AT GREENVALLLEY THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE NOT THERE ONLY THAT I HAVE NOT CAUGHT ONE. WHEN THEY USED TO STOCK WHITEWATER HATCHERY FISH I CAUGHT FULL STRINGERS OF LARGE FISH. THOSE ARE FACTS BASED ON MY EXPERIENCES AT THAT LAKE HOW CAN THAT NOT COUNT AS MY EXPEPERIENCE WHEN THATS WHAT REALY HAS HAPPENED TO ME!!!

what would you like me to do, really? Lie to you and tell you that I have caught huge fish and dozens of them at that.

Trout 1
05-18-2010, 11:35 PM
I told myself I wouldnt do this but here we go.
the highlighted areas only:
1. They do charge more now than in the past. I used to pay 7 now they charge 15. THATS MORE.
2. I have caught only small state fish, again notice where I said you may be a better fisherman than me but I'm not going to lie, thats all I have caught my last 4-5 trips there, making this statement a fact based on my experiences there!
3. They no longer stock whitewater hatchery trout, they stock mt lassen and jess ranch, making this statement also a fact!

Like I have said several times before I cannot tell you how others have done there only how I have done sorry I suck at fishing this lake, I do very well at the lakes that I frequent but my posts are true based on what I have experienced there. STOP LOOKING AT WHAT MAY BE IMPLIED AND READ THE PLAIN ENGLISH, I HAVE NEVER CAUGHT JESS RANCH TROUT AT GREENVALLLEY THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE NOT THERE ONLY THAT I HAVE NOT CAUGHT ONE. WHEN THEY USED TO STOCK WHITEWATER HATCHERY FISH I CAUGHT FULL STRINGERS OF LARGE FISH. THOSE ARE FACTS BASED ON MY EXPERIENCES AT THAT LAKE HOW CAN THAT NOT COUNT AS MY EXPEPERIENCE WHEN THATS WHAT REALY HAS HAPPENED TO ME!!!

what would you like me to do, really? Lie to you and tell you that I have caught huge fish and dozens of them at that.

If you would like shoot me a PM and I can give you some tips on the lake....

Trout 1

AngryAgent
05-19-2010, 12:14 AM
Thats exactly why I stopped going there, higher prices smaller fish. That just doesnt make sense, I remember when they used to stock the big whitewater trout, we would come out of there with a couple 3+lbs fish. Now you can catch state fish all day long but nothing worht the price tag.


I told myself I wouldnt do this but here we go.
the highlighted areas only:
1. They do charge more now than in the past. I used to pay 7 now they charge 15. THATS MORE.
2. I have caught only small state fish, again notice where I said you may be a better fisherman than me but I'm not going to lie, thats all I have caught my last 4-5 trips there, making this statement a fact based on my experiences there!
3. They no longer stock whitewater hatchery trout, they stock mt lassen and jess ranch, making this statement also a fact!

Like I have said several times before I cannot tell you how others have done there only how I have done sorry I suck at fishing this lake, I do very well at the lakes that I frequent but my posts are true based on what I have experienced there. STOP LOOKING AT WHAT MAY BE IMPLIED AND READ THE PLAIN ENGLISH, I HAVE NEVER CAUGHT JESS RANCH TROUT AT GREENVALLLEY THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE NOT THERE ONLY THAT I HAVE NOT CAUGHT ONE. WHEN THEY USED TO STOCK WHITEWATER HATCHERY FISH I CAUGHT FULL STRINGERS OF LARGE FISH. THOSE ARE FACTS BASED ON MY EXPERIENCES AT THAT LAKE HOW CAN THAT NOT COUNT AS MY EXPEPERIENCE WHEN THATS WHAT REALY HAS HAPPENED TO ME!!!

what would you like me to do, really? Lie to you and tell you that I have caught huge fish and dozens of them at that.


Look man I don't give a crap about your experience really. You joined in on the bad mouth band wagon and started crying about ,"that's why I stopped going there, higher prices smaller fish" blah blah blah...You did cry about it period it's in your own words. If you don't know how to fish the lake and don't like it because they stopped stocking your precious white water trout then don't go but the fact remains that they are stocking just as big of fish as they ever have before. You stopped going there great, that's good info for everyone to know thanks for that:Rolls Eyes: What were you contributing to the conversation other then to say that they had small fish for their high prices? That's not bad mouthing them? You haven't caught big fish so therefore you stopped going because they raised their prices and all you now catch is small state stockers. Ok I got you now it all makes sense:Crying:

IncredibleHuck
05-19-2010, 07:24 AM
but the fact remains that they are stocking just as big of fish as they ever have before.

I really didn't want to chime in here, but I think I will. I used to fish GVL all the time up till about 4 years ago. When I started going back this past season I noticed the size of the fish did go down somewhat, but what I have also noticed is that GVL has a lot bigger crowds then before, and before there were still a lot of people going.

I believe the guy who used to run it, RON, also ran a very good operation as well, but before him there was another guy who ran GVL and may have just been the best lake manager around. That guy was also running Arrowbear towards the beginning of the season when it has flowing water and putting beasts in there too, but I don't think we will ever see that happen againa t Arrowbear.

Also they said that new Lake Record was caught this year, but does anyone remember the old record? I could have sworn it was upwards of 15 pounds.

troutman3
05-19-2010, 07:55 AM
Since when is this a sight to promote a business in this case Green Valley Lake! I was up there "opening day" and I guess about 95% of us forgot and or dont know how to catch trout! Please dont pee down our back and tell us its raining.

goodguy
05-19-2010, 09:00 AM
Since when is this a sight to promote a business in this case Green Valley Lake! I was up there "opening day" and I guess about 95% of us forgot and or dont know how to catch trout! Please dont pee down our back and tell us its raining.

^ ^^^^^ hahahaha

Trout 1
05-19-2010, 09:52 AM
Well if you go back....Hopefully you will get into a good bite...I know there is good size fish in there but try going in like, late june its better IMO. Although last year it was on FIRE in may!!!!!! Red was the color last year. All I can say is good luck and to keep hitting up this lake it one of the best lakes IMO.

Trout 1

FLYFISHING MD
05-19-2010, 08:08 PM
good lake, i can go to work then wet the flie till 8pm love the hours ''can we all get along'':Guns:

viperman100
05-19-2010, 08:12 PM
Look man I don't give a crap about your experience really. You joined in on the bad mouth band wagon and started crying about ,"that's why I stopped going there, higher prices smaller fish" blah blah blah...You did cry about it period it's in your own words. If you don't know how to fish the lake and don't like it because they stopped stocking your precious white water trout then don't go but the fact remains that they are stocking just as big of fish as they ever have before. You stopped going there great, that's good info for everyone to know thanks for that:Rolls Eyes: What were you contributing to the conversation other then to say that they had small fish for their high prices? That's not bad mouthing them? You haven't caught big fish so therefore you stopped going because they raised their prices and all you now catch is small state stockers. Ok I got you now it all makes sense:Crying:

For being someone who doesnt care about my posts or experiences you sure quote them an awful lot. Look you whiner stop your crying already,what is it did I hurt your feelings? Its not that big a deal, too bad its too hard for you to understand how forums work, different people different views and opinions. I hope you have a great time at your precious little lake, look at it this way the less people go the more fish there is for you. I was agreeing with the thread starter because we both had the same results there, you and two other people disagree.....ok I dont have a problem with you disagreeing with me at all.

viperman100
05-19-2010, 08:18 PM
If you would like shoot me a PM and I can give you some tips on the lake....

Trout 1

Thanks for the offer, I may take you up on that someday my kid loves the place because thats where he caught his first fish and therefore he has very fond memories of it. BTW he is 12 now and his first visit there was back when he was 3, he still remebers it.

jonnyfishon
05-19-2010, 09:29 PM
i liked it better when it was 3 dollars to get in , back in the 90s, those were the good old days

Trout 1
05-19-2010, 10:54 PM
thats epic getting the kid out man. Still remebers huh. he must of had a great time.

Trout 1

Kimura6985
05-19-2010, 11:54 PM
you should quit while you are ahead, there are no guarantees in fishing that's why it's called fishing not catching, if you want guarantees go fish @ one of those fish and pay places, it's not about catching all the time, kick back and enjoy the scenery just be happy that you caught fish, sure alot better than spending money and getting skunked, Dude it's fishin your suppose to relax, just my 2 cents, Please don't respond
I have seen threads like this get real childish real quick so this is my last post on this thread, I never said they were lying about what they stock there, infact I went out of my way to repeat myself in saying my post is based on my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

Rot8
05-20-2010, 06:11 AM
I also went to opening day at GVL. I too was disappointed with the catch. I caught my limit of state stockers but saw a few guys next to me catch some nice Jess Ranch fish with lures. For an opening day, there weren't as many people as I expected, so I thought the bite would be good with the light pressure. The one thing I did notice was the discolored water. It was real brown. Someone mentioned the run off had something to do with it. Nonetheless, fish or no fish the scenery, weather, people were amazing. It is such a beautiful, peaceful place that it would had been worth it even if we didn't catch any fish. Great burgers at the at Malt Shop and friendly people who run the place. I definitely look forward to fishing it again, hopefully catching the bigger fish next time. Another thing that can be added was the fish were delicious. You get none of that earthy taste that you get when you catch fish at the pay for fish lakes down in the flat lands. Finally, if you do go make sure you are perfectly legal: license, solo stringer, and two pole stamp. The Game Wardern will definitely come by and will write you up if you are not up to par. He even will inspect your coolers so don't try hide any. A couple guys got dinged for the works, multiple poles, no license, and over the limit. The lady who issues the pay tags said it would cost them over $2000.00 for that fine. Ouch. It pays to follow the rules. Anyways, if you want to get a way and just relax...GVL is the place to be.

Trout 1
05-20-2010, 11:13 AM
I also went to opening day at GVL. I too was disappointed with the catch. I caught my limit of state stockers but saw a few guys next to me catch some nice Jess Ranch fish with lures. For an opening day, there weren't as many people as I expected, so I thought the bite would be good with the light pressure. The one thing I did notice was the discolored water. It was real brown. Someone mentioned the run off had something to do with it. Nonetheless, fish or no fish the scenery, weather, people were amazing. It is such a beautiful, peaceful place that it would had been worth it even if we didn't catch any fish. Great burgers at the at Malt Shop and friendly people who run the place. I definitely look forward to fishing it again, hopefully catching the bigger fish next time. Another thing that can be added was the fish were delicious. You get none of that earthy taste that you get when you catch fish at the pay for fish lakes down in the flat lands. Finally, if you do go make sure you are perfectly legal: license, solo stringer, and two pole stamp. The Game Wardern will definitely come by and will write you up if you are not up to par. He even will inspect your coolers so don't try hide any. A couple guys got dinged for the works, multiple poles, no license, and over the limit. The lady who issues the pay tags said it would cost them over $2000.00 for that fine. Ouch. It pays to follow the rules. Anyways, if you want to get a way and just relax...GVL is the place to be.

Have you fished GVL before? or is it your first time? Like you said there is great ppl up there and belive me you willl get into a great bite with big fish someday.....its still VERY early in the season.

Trout 1

Rot8
05-20-2010, 08:16 PM
Have you fished GVL before? or is it your first time? Like you said there is great ppl up there and belive me you willl get into a great bite with big fish someday.....its still VERY early in the season.

Trout 1

Yes, I didn't make up last year, but the 2 years before that I went at least 4 times during the season. Two years ago I caught some nice alpers, but it was generally hit and miss. Sometimes it was a little discouraging because of the distance I had to travel but overall I enjoyed the experience.

viperman100
05-20-2010, 08:42 PM
you should quit while you are ahead, there are no guarantees in fishing that's why it's called fishing not catching, if you want guarantees go fish @ one of those fish and pay places, it's not about catching all the time, kick back and enjoy the scenery just be happy that you caught fish, sure alot better than spending money and getting skunked, Dude it's fishin your suppose to relax, just my 2 cents, Please don't respond

I understand I'm not always going to catch fish, believe me I've had more than my fair share of skunks, but like I said before the price alone is enough reason for me to not visit this lake as often as I used to. BTW the price is the same reason that I dont fish Corona or SARL. I do enjoy fishing just for the time spent out at the lake, taking the kids with me I rarely got a chance to fish myself, but I dont appreciate being called out for giving my opinion, you need understand that everyone is entitled to their own. You should also know that posting "please dont respond" usually only coaxes another response. =0)

Trout 1
05-20-2010, 11:29 PM
Oh ok. Well like I have said its a good lake and u will get into a GREAT bite one day. You missed a good season last year.....also like i said it was epic!!!!

Trout 1

MagicWorm
05-29-2010, 10:13 PM
personally i've never fished there so can't comment on that.

i do however go to jess ranch alot! they do have great quality fish and i have my best luck on a white jig with a powerworm tailer. also if there not biting on the bottom a rattle bobber works great!

they also hit gold and red thomas bouyants.

i agree it disconcerning when you pay 15+ to get into a pay lake and catch stockers. you can go to your local parks for the stockers.
jess ranch is the only pay lake i have been to. seems to catch the big ones you need to pay $$.... yes they do stock local parks with sum big fish.

i'll take a bad day fishing over the best day working :)

btw what local lakes are free? regional parks are just as much as a pay lake pretty much now n days.

joshua