Legalization

[dockboy]

Ok, seeing its the day that many ppl turn to marijuana, I'd figure Id ask your opinion. Legalization of drug(s) or not? Let play nice here ok? It'd be nice to hear some rational arguments and statements, not some emotional gook and ad-hominem bs. This is my take. Feel free to counter:

I believe all drugs ought to be legalized. I am not a user and never will be. I despise drugs, and find them quite pointless. I wont poison my body with them. However, if there is one thing I know we cannot do in a country, its control morality. We cannot, IMHO, use law to control the morals of the American people. Morality in this issue ought to be the obligation of religion, not of law, and law and religion ought to be separate. Quite frankly, I dont care if you choose to smoke. I wont. I dont like it. But I refuse to tell you how to live your life, and refuse to support a government that will.

Before someone goes on a rant, let me speak further. Legalization has its benefits, if you ask me. It would decrease the demand, first and foremost. With a decrease in demand, drug violence in Mexico would likely fall. Im not saying it will disappear, I doubt that will ever happen. But it would certainly take away much of the immense power the cartels hold. Deny it people may, but our future is irrevocably intertwined with Mexico's. If they descend into utter chaos, only trouble can be brought to bear on the American people.

Second, it keeps kids from selling to kids. Make it available through a pharmacy, and suddenly drugs dont look so cool. Regulate the hell out of it and tax it. Use the tax money to help create more rehab centers and safe houses. Think of the money you save alone from dismantling the DEA and other such agencies. Drugs in America's youth are popular because they are illegal. Legalize something, and suddenly its not that cool to smoke anymore.

Legalization could and would likely mean regulation. Im all for drug regulation. You know why? Id rather have the heroin junkie coming to the pharmacy getting an amount that wont kill him or her. Id rather see a cocaine user getting the amount that won't cause an instant OD. Will people still try it? Of course. Thats not my point. But lets look at it this way. If you can't defeat them fighting against it, why not ally and work to make it safer. We've tried for 30 plus years to fight drugs in America. Sure, there has been a decrease in drug use. But the decrease has stopped and has been for many years now. The results are micro-scale to the amount of users. So tell me, why are we controlling morality?

Remember, no need for emotions. This is just my 2 cents

[hughpam]

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!!

Next.

[DarkShadow]

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!!



Agreed! How dare people legalize something that has been known to be bad for your health!?!?

(Please keep cigarettes and alcohol legal though.)

[KID CREOLE]

Legalize drugs? How are we as country doing with alcohol and cigarettes?

[dockboy]

ok. i hear you. but maybe some explanations, some logic. why would you say "absolutely not" ?

[DarkShadow]

ok. i hear you. but maybe some explanations, some logic. why would you say "absolutely not" ?

This should prove interesting.

[Asecino420]

:ROFL:Drugs legal? I honestly dont think they should make drugs legal...If anyone read the Bussines section of the latimes today there was an opinion article in witch specifies good reasons why....yes Marijuana is a cash crop and was a cash crop before the crackers made it illegal cuz they were in danger of losing there incomes and busnisses. Witch was and is lumber. Hemp should be legal. so many great things come from Hemp...getting offsubject...how bout you make ciggs illegal cause we all know there is proven death...and the tax can be raised every year and smokers will not stop buying...marijuana...f*ck you lapd chief. keep drugs illegal and yeah...bust the drugdealers...hey maybe the house nextdoor to urs is a medical marijuana garden....:Secret::Secret::Secret:





HAPPY 420!!!!

[dockboy]

If you dont have a point or something with logic to say dont post. I didnt put this here to cause issues, just to hear some logical opinions. Thank you.

[tacklejunkie]

Legalize pot and prostitution. Then tax it, and lower or normal taxes back down. :Razz: 9 freakin' percent?! Are you kidding me? Now I really won't buy anything in Cali.

[City Dad]

News Flash: In California IT IS LEGAL (all it takes to get you medical marijuan card is a hundred bucks and acess to Google Maps) and as far as I can tell NOT DANG THING HAS HAPPENED- NO DOGS SLEEPING WITH CATS, NO CRAZED TEA-HEADS RAMPAGIING WITH MACHETES, NO WHITE FOLKS UN-CLENCHING THEIR A**ES AND LETTING WESTERN CIVILIZATION GO TO POT (PUN INTENDED), etc., etc. So, what's the point? Who's smoking weed and why ranks at the very top of my list of stuff I don't give a flying F about.

to digress slightly; IMHO a "war" on drugs is no more winable than a war on earth quakes. time to view the situation with some maturity. People take drugs - the idea that our present law enforcement stance on them is somehow holding back a tsunami of drug use is unproven and unprovable. How 'bout lets take a deep breath and say "Okay, we know what happens when we do A, so let's give B, C and maybe even D a try." Consistently performing the same action and expecting a different result is insane. I'm not saying we should stock the vending machines in Jr. Highschools with black tar heroine... but we should have intelligence- or rather, common sense - enough to look at the drug problem(s) from outside of the prisim of desperation and utter panic which has painted public opionion for the last fifty years. people do drugs becuase the drugs work. that's never going to change. what can change is our reaction to this fact.

[tacklejunkie]

News Flash: In California IT IS LEGAL (all it takes to get you medical marijuan card is a hundred bucks and acess to Google Maps)
Most potheads are too lazy and would rather spend the $100 on the actual weed than give it to a doctor and then have to shell out another $100 at the club. :Smile:

Once in a while you'll come across the "Club Members" though. Half the time they're the ones selling it. Basically Medi-weed from the government. So the man is making money off the weed, they can't legalize it!

[olfishergal]

IMHO, Once you leagalize and TAX the krap out of something then it sure looses its attractiveness real quick.....Look at cigs for example, peeps have been coming into my clinic asking or help getting off the cigs cuz on their GR income of 200 bucks a month, they can't eat and smoke too....Leagalize it and get the dealers off the streets.....except for meth, I would never legalize it, it is real poison, worse than heroin since it is not a pure substance, made in cookpots in someones house and loaded with krap 10x's the worst stuff out there.

[tacklejunkie]

IMHO, Once you leagalize and TAX the krap out of something then it sure looses its attractiveness real quick.....Look at cigs for example, peeps have been coming into my clinic asking or help getting off the cigs cuz on their GR income of 200 bucks a month, they can't eat and smoke too....Leagalize it and get the dealers off the streets.....except for meth, I would never legalize it, it is real poison, worse than heroin since it is not a pure substance, made in cookpots in someones house and loaded with krap 10x's the worst stuff out there.

I agree. OFG for pres..

Meth does seriously bad things to people. Not just physically. Mentally as well. One of the worst things on the planet to be addicted to smoking or snorting that stuff. Not to mention all the fake crap it's cut with to make it look like it's worth more than it is..

[dockboy]

True. "All drugs" isnt necessarily all inclusive. Meth, black tar heroin, certain forms of coke, should be illegal, simply because they are deadly toxins even in miniscule amounts.

[Rabbito]

The founding fathers of this country got it right when they said in the declaration of independence that

"...that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...."

Unfortunatly some people dont believe that there is a right to Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

Making and keeping drugs illegal goes against the very foundation of our great country. People who support the resitriction of Liberty and are against people's pursuits of happiness are UNAMERICAN.

Those people should go to China where their government controls every aspect of their lives.

LET FREEDOM RING!!

[dockboy]

Those people should go to China where their government controls every aspect of their lives.

LET FREEDOM RING!!

Easy. The point here is too make a opinionated statement of logic. No insults or as hominem argument plz

[joe man]

I would have to say keep drug illegal. If you look at crime stats it become obvious that drugs and violent crime go hand in hand. We can rationally assume that some of the trafficing crime would decrease if drugs are legalized but the crimes committed by junkies trying to fund a habit would remain. It is the crime committed by the end users that lands most drug connected criminals in jail.

[Captain Boracho]

Drugs in general should not be legalized...now saying that what i mean is anything manufactured by man...heroin coke speed pcp ecstacy ketamine etc.

Ive found that things that grow naturally from this earth are not all that bad, we all drink coffee (well most of us).

Even though i love to drink a beer on occasion (like with breakfast) Beer is 100x's worse than pot yet its legal.

I have never witnesed a guy smoke 20 bucks worth of weed and want to fight, drive, or beat his wife and fight anyone who challenges him.

Potheads are not all that bad or a drain on society, yeah you might get lazy and just wanna stay home and eat 10 bowls of captn crunch while watching looney toons. Is that really all that bad?

Potheads are usually just laid back cool cats who want nothing more than to be just left alone with there high.

Weve all read the pros and cons of what would happen if pot was legalized. No more debt is the biggest pro here. Like i said potheads get lazy, going to a clinic where you know you can score great pot is the best option a pothead could have and would eliminate going to a "dealer" who is not going to pay tax on his earnings.

We live in a new age where we are a little more educated and understand certain things are not as bad as the propoganda films released by the nixon administration showed us, just like City dad quoted.

[WaterBound]

Many good points have been brought up however a major issue is whether changing the laws will increase or decrease consumption. When prohibition was removed alcohol consumption did NOT decrease. Just because something has a deviant or counter culture stigma removed from it doesn't mean people will use it less. YOU OBVIOUSLY are VERY conservative and SHELTERED if you think legalizing drugs will really lower their consumption. Studies and comparisons between addicts in Amsterdam and London show no improvement in the numbers of heroine addicts. The people who claim that consumption will go down because of legalization NEVER GOT HIGH! People do drugs for many reasons, but most of all IT FEELS GOOD! Now we need to consider that PRESCRIPTION Drugs are the MOST ABUSED substances ON EARTH! More people die from prescription drug use than ALL NARCOTICS combined! Kids LOVE prescription drugs because they have the EASIEST access. Also as far as getting rid of the criminal element. Please criminals WILL ALWAYS engage in CONTRABAND. It is not the contraband itself that causes criminals to commit crimes. It is the high cash rewards that inspire people to engage in criminal activity. So you legalize something that was illegal the criminals just sell another illegal item that is in demand. Someone also mentioned the junkies. I hate to tell you this but it is not the junkies I am worried about, but the organized criminals that facilitate the distribution of illegal substances. As far as our future with Mexico, yeah that has been planned under "The North American Union" it will implement a new currency called the "Amerigo" which will replace the Canadian, US and Mexican currencies. Someone's claim that we are linked with Mexico is very vague. We are more connected with China THAN MEXICO! The mass amounts of Mexicans flooding into the Southwest, FORMERLY MEXICO. Prove that you cannot ignore mass numbers of people. This only highlights the fact that you cannot ignore the MOST POPULOUS NATION on earth, China. Oh and someone stated China controls everything. That is completely IGNORANT! China has a one child policy and STILL they have FAILED to fully implement this policy. The mainland Chinese government may want to control every facet of society. However it cannot fully implement that mandate. As far as the pharmacy and the junkie thing. Pharmacies DO NOT HAVE DOSAGE guidelines for patients GETTING HIGH! So your idea of regulating narcotic dosages for people getting high is NAIVE. You may have set dosage limits for death, however this does not fall into the scope of regulating narcotics for REAL consumption. Also kids are more sophisticated than ever. I probably talk to and see more youth than most. My experience has showed me that the youngsters are getting smarter and starting to network and conduct business at a much earlier age. They have networks for trading porn, homework, drugs and stolen property. Dealers are no longer just manipulated by OLDER thugs. THEY ARE THINKING OF THE CRIMINAL IDEAS THEMSELVES! I once met a 9th grader who had 35 dealers under him at 6 high schools. I asked him when he set up his network and he said third grade! Legalizing drugs is like regulating guns. You can put all the regulations you want on guns. THE CRIMINALS WILL NEVER follow them. Just like putting regulations on drugs. The CRIMINALS never follow them. We regulate prescription drugs. However prescription drugs are MORE ABUSED and cause more DEATHS than NARCOTICS! Oh and someone brought up morals and religion. PLEASE DO NOT LET RELIGION REGULATE MORALS! The Christian Bible CLEARLY explains many events where GOD ORDERS THE EXTERMINATION OF PEOPLE! So do not let religion regulate morals. LAWS ARE NEEDED FOR THAT. For example NO CHRISTIAN I know FOLLOWS THE BIBLE and stops growing and harvesting produce every seventh year. In Israel they are much more FAITHFUL and still practice either selling their land for the term of 1 year every seven years or importing foreign soil to grow crops on top of and not in Israeli land. We also have not stopped rape and murder. We have been fighting these evils since the beginning of man. Just because we have not stopped it doesn't mean we should make rape and murder legal. As for Marijuana. Most people do not know that it is FROM CHINA. It is the first form of medicine, food, clothing and fuel. The first bible was printed out of hemp fibers. It can also make plastics, cleaner fuel and is a renewable source of fibers. It was made illegal because of harsh anti-Chicano hysteria. Now the reason marijuana is so readily used is because the gov lies and spreads FALSE propaganda on it. People don't believe it smoke some and don't get the BS harmful effects the gov claims. IN FACT EVERY CREDIBLE MEDICAL STUDY ever done on Marijuana in the US has concluded that it is not as harmful as alcohol and should be decriminalized. THERE ARE ZERO DEATHS from using MARIJUANA. Meth and other harmful drugs cannot make the SAME SAFE CLAIMS. But let us use the police union in southern california as an example. I was listening to KFWB on the radio. The policeman's union was talking about the fact that THEY WILL FIRE METH USERS. Officer's found using Cocaine and Marijuana WILL NOT BE FIRED! There may be penalties for them and what not, but using those drugs WILL NOT BE GROUNDS TO FIRE THEM. Are there any officers that would like to comment on this news story??? In any case another claim that drug use has DECREASED is again NAIVE! How can anyone compile objective and accurate statistics on CONTRABAND? How do you count what you do not know of??? So in the end let us add one more Chinese plant to the pantheon of agricultural products that have benefited the world and human civilization. Over half of all plants that benefit human civilization came from China. No matter how you feel about it. Marijuana has been one of the most important plants for human civilization. It has great potential as a renewable source of food, energy, clothing and oxygen production. Other hard drugs like METH should NEVER BE LEGAL! It is the WORST JAPANESE INVENTION OF ALL TIME. Stupid ******* A. Ogata.

[matt duarte]

where did this post come from haha... i dont think all drugs should be legal, things that are man made or chemically altured should be illegal. like needle drugs and nose drugs.. i for one think pot should be legal but taxed so uncle sam makes his dollar.. i mean pot is some what legal with a medical card but thats only state law, the feds can still bust you. now if the feds were smart they would figure out that they can make a lot of money WHAT OUR COUNTRY NEEDS RIGHT NOW..one or 2 medical stores per city and garenteed enough money would be made to beautifiy the city and what ever other needs...not counting the 150$ annual fee for a card...im all for it! pass the peace pipe and lets go fish.......unlike them bank robbin crack heads

[WaterBound]

where did this post come from haha... i dont think all drugs should be legal, things that are man made or chemically altured should be illegal. like needle drugs and nose drugs.. i for one think pot should be legal but taxed so uncle sam makes his dollar.. i mean pot is some what legal with a medical card but thats only state law, the feds can still bust you. now if the feds were smart they would figure out that they can make a lot of money WHAT OUR COUNTRY NEEDS RIGHT NOW..one or 2 medical stores per city and garenteed enough money would be made to beautifiy the city and what ever other needs...not counting the 150$ annual fee for a card...im all for it! pass the peace pipe and lets go fish.......unlike them bank robbin crack heads

THE FEDERAL GOV WILL NO LONGER ATTACK MARIJUANA PATIENTS! The US Attorney General has already made it clear that it will NOT PROSECUTE Legitimate patients and caregivers. The DEA tried to FORCE the issue by spending MILLIONS on various raids and busts just after Obama became elected. In turn Obama had his newly appointed Attorney General outline federal policy. THE FEDS CAN BUST YOU, BUT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WILL NOT WASTE OUR TAX DOLLARS PROSECUTING YOU ANYMORE!

[JENSEN500]

No matter how legal you make pot,you'll still get dumb when you smoke it!











this outta get interesting :)

[DarkShadow]

this outta get interesting :)

Prolly not, as the discussion is about the legalization, and not the side effects of narcotics.

[DEADROOTS]

DRUGS are bad...UMMKAY...SO...Dont do drugs...Cuz there bad...UMMMKAY!!
If you do drugs... Your bad...So dont be bad...Dont do drugs...Cuz there bad... UMMKAY!!:EyePop:

[Ronira]

Legalizing weed is a no brainer. The money this state spends on law enforcement would be greatly reduced. It would eliminate the plant and crop erradication task force that spends millions for helicopters and support vehicles. Not to mention the officers that could be doing something a little more important. Also it would make destroying National Forest land to grow pot go away. The revenues gained by taxation of something that is being bought and consumed anyway would help with the budget shortfalls in Sacremento. Also seems to me that it's constitutionaly wrong to allow smoking cigarettes and cigars and discriminating against marijuana. As far as all druds being legalized I'm not so sure. I will say that making drugs illegal creates more crime in my opinion. The problem is the destructive nature of some of these drugs (meth, crack, and heroin to name a few) inherently creates other social problems. Legalize the weed and prosecute the chemicals I think. :Beer Toast:

[britheguy]

I agree with all of these points, Marijuana and Prostitution should be legalized.

The government will be able to tax it and get a constant source of income.

For the prostitution you will be able to bring the violence out of the industry and clean it up. They will also be able to tax this HEAVILY.

[dockboy]

Ok. BTW, Waterbound; dont insult others. If you are going to insult me and others on here who post, dont post. You have no idea who I am, and I dont know you, DO NOT PLAY AD HOMINEM BULLSHIT. Thats not the idea here, and thats not logic. Judge not lest you be judged yourself.

That being said, I do hear the point on certain drugs and violent crime. Its proven in many cases, no doubt. But what percentage of those crimes are dealer related I wonder? It would be interesting to see those stats, IMO.
I'd also rather see our law enforcement fighting true drug dealers and criminals, not 15 year old kids selling and consuming pot. IMHO, eliminate the issue pot dealing and smoking brings up, and you allow more funds and therefore more successful prevention of other illegal substances.

The trends of use in heroin, crack, and other chemical drugs, with the exception of methamphetamines, have gone down in the last decade. Hence the reason the cartels in Mexico deal a majority in marijuana anymore. The US junkie demand has gone down incredibly on "hard" drugs. Obviously, I never would state to legalize meth. Its easy to find the substances needed produce illegally, dangerous to make, mentally and physically dangerous, and the potential for violent crime is increased. AS I stated in a earlier post here :Smile:

Someone brought up my credibility. Im not a user, true. Im not involved in drug counter culture, also true. But I do attend UC Santa Cruz, one of the more liberal schools on drug use. Thats where this thread came from. I see it daily, and yesterday being the most prevalent day of the year for smoking, I thought it fit. Yes, people will say its college and it will happen, no doubt. But I also see, hear of, and know of dealers here who don't deal just pot but hard and dangerous prescription drugs also. Luckily, several of those people have been caught. But the issue still weighed heavily on my mind, and hence, I thought I would ask the opinion of those here on the board.

[JENSEN500]

Prolly not, as the discussion is about the legalization, and not the side effects of narcotics.

True, but why not discuss the side effects of legalization!

But i'd hate to complicate this thread,after all, multi-tasking is not a Pot-Heads strong point!

[DarkShadow]

True, but why not discuss the side effects of legalization!


People are discussing the various side effects of legalization through out the thread.

The positive side effects that have been mentioned include increased tax revenue, decrease in certain crimes, freed up resources for law enforcement...

[BassFreak]

I think you can scratch that increased tax revenue, Pot isnt very hard to grow. I can only imagine how many will have pot gardens if it was legal to do so. Heck, If I can grow cigarettes in my backyard, I would. They can tax it in the stores all they want but who will be buying??

[JENSEN500]

People are discussing the various side effects of legalization through out the thread.

The positive side effects that have been mentioned include increased tax revenue, decrease in certain crimes, freed up resources for law enforcement...

What about other proven side effects of pot:



Typical Marijuana Side Effects:


Enhanced cancer risk
Decrease in testosterone levels and lower sperm counts for men
Increase in testosterone levels for women and increased risk of infertility
Diminished or extinguished sexual pleasure
Psychological dependence requiring more of the drug to get the same effect
Sleepiness
Difficulty keeping track of time, impaired or reduced short-term memory
Reduced ability to perform tasks requiring concentration and coordination,
such as driving a car
Increased heart rate
Potential cardiac dangers for those with preexisting heart disease
Bloodshot eyes
Dry mouth and throat
Decreased social inhibitions
Paranoia, hallucinations
Impaired or reduced comprehension
Altered motivation and cognition, making the acquisition of new information difficult
Paranoia
Psychological dependence
Impairments in learning and memory, perception, and judgment - difficulty
speaking, listening effectively, thinking, retaining knowledge, problem solving,
and forming concepts
Intense anxiety or panic attacks


and of course the non-stop use of the words or phrases:


1.totally
2.for sure dude
3.right on brah!
etc.etc.etc

Not all of the side effects of pot legalization are positive!

But then again,i guess we'll need all of the tax revenue to pay for the increased gov't assistance for all of those who no longer have the drive or mental compacity to hold down a job or who suffer from paranoia and are unable to function as a normal self supporting human being.

But what do i know?

[dockboy]

True. But cigs are proven to be cancer agents, even to those who experience secondhand smoke. Alcohol will give you cirrhosis of the liver if consumed in large enough amounts, to mention the inability to perform any type of concentrated and coordinated activity with immediate increased consumption. Cigarettes and alcohol are some of, if not the only, products sold that if used as recommended will cause bodily harm. Why do you believe marijuana is different, if I may ask?

I hear the point on the issue of competition between private growers and the government. True, it is likely that people would deal under the table and undersell government prices. That occurs on any regulated item, IMO. But if we have close to half a century of drug enforcement and control in hand, why not use it to control domestic growers? I guess what you could say is I think the govt. should have is a monopoly on marijuana. Make it so that it is legal and fairly easily to obtain, but only through official outlets.And enforce the control of the market by suppression of "illegal" competition. Make it so that the user will see more benefit in buying from the government than risking their necks to buy home-grown. But, thats just my 2 cents

[TShaffer]

What about other proven side effects of pot:



Typical Marijuana Side Effects:


Enhanced cancer risk
Decrease in testosterone levels and lower sperm counts for men
Increase in testosterone levels for women and increased risk of infertility
Diminished or extinguished sexual pleasure
Psychological dependence requiring more of the drug to get the same effect
Sleepiness
Difficulty keeping track of time, impaired or reduced short-term memory
Reduced ability to perform tasks requiring concentration and coordination,
such as driving a car
Increased heart rate
Potential cardiac dangers for those with preexisting heart disease
Bloodshot eyes
Dry mouth and throat
Decreased social inhibitions
Paranoia, hallucinations
Impaired or reduced comprehension
Altered motivation and cognition, making the acquisition of new information difficult
Paranoia
Psychological dependence
Impairments in learning and memory, perception, and judgment - difficulty
speaking, listening effectively, thinking, retaining knowledge, problem solving,
and forming concepts
Intense anxiety or panic attacks


and of course the non-stop use of the words or phrases:


1.totally
2.for sure dude
3.right on brah!
etc.etc.etc

Not all of the side effects of pot legalization are positive!

But then again,i guess we'll need all of the tax revenue to pay for the increased gov't assistance for all of those who no longer have the drive or mental compacity to hold down a job or who suffer from paranoia and are unable to function as a normal self supporting human being.

But what do i know?

LOL I say those all the time. Just kidding brah.

[tacklejunkie]

But what do i know?
Enough to copy and paste a list but not enough to correct it's improperly translated punctuation.
You can't say all that stuff applies to all marijuana users and be speaking the truth. If you honestly believe so, I have a couple religions to sell you.

And again, alcohol is way worse. Marijuana paranoia would also not exist if it were legalized.

[tacklejunkie]

I think you can scratch that increased tax revenue, Pot isnt very hard to grow. I can only imagine how many will have pot gardens if it was legal to do so. Heck, If I can grow cigarettes in my backyard, I would. They can tax it in the stores all they want but who will be buying??
Do you know anybody I can get a big bag of cigarette tobacco from their fresh back yard crop?
I think if people could get it at the liquor store, they'd forgo the grow room. As with currently available products.
Keep growing for personal use and sale prohibited.

[JENSEN500]

Enough to copy and paste a list but not enough to correct it's improperly translated punctuation.
You can't say all that stuff applies to all marijuana users and be speaking the truth. If you honestly believe so, I have a couple religions to sell you.

And again, alcohol is way worse. Marijuana paranoia would also not exist if it were legalized.

I never said that alcohol was any better,Nor do i accept credit for the list of MEDICALLY PROVEN side affects of pot.But i promise you,most people can spot a pot head in the first few minutes of conversation/interaction.I agree whole heartedly that it does not apply to all who smoke pot,but with legalization comes new partakers and increased frequency of use.How could it not? Also paranoia is a side effect of the drug,not just a side effect of getting busted.Theoretically,paranoia will increase upon legalization provided the number of users increase.

[greeper]

Drugs should not be legalized, Drugs kill not even up for debate.

Those who say Marijuana isn't a gateway drug are full of ****. Just ask my college roommate oh wait, you can't he's dead from drug use that all started with the green ****.

[Sierra_Smitty]

I never said that alcohol was any better,Nor do i accept credit for the list of MEDICALLY PROVEN side affects of pot.But i promise you,most people can spot a pot head in the first few minutes of conversation/interaction.I agree whole heartedly that it does not apply to all who smoke pot,but with legalization comes new partakers and increased frequency of use.How could it not? Also paranoia is a side effect of the drug,not just a side effect of getting busted.Theoretically,paranoia will increase upon legalization provided the number of users increase.

Most people can also spot a drunk within a few minutes of interaction - so what?

If you want to keep alcohol and tobacco legal, there is no justification for keeping pot illegal...especially when you consider the MEDICALLY PROVEN side effects of those currently legal substances. The premise most of the "legalize it" supporters talk about is that pot is no worse than some legal substances and if it is not worse, then how do you justify keeping it illegal? I have yet to hear anyone sufficiently answer that question.

Increased usage, paranoia, unhealthful side effects, etc etc - none of those things justify why booze is ok and pot is not.

Compare anything on the top tier drug list to alcohol and it's obvious ......
How about this test. What is worse?
crack vs beer?
heroin vs beer?
E vs beer?
meth vs beer?

All of those are no brainers right? So how in the hell is pot in the same league as those substances? What terrible affliction would pot use cause that alcohol wouldn't cause in the same quantity? I consider myself a pretty conservative guy in most political situations but I have never been able to figure this one out.

If the same rules applied to weed that apply to alcohol (don't drive, don't supply to minors, don't smoke at work etc.) why not? I've known VP's of very large IT firms, business owners galore, white collar and blue collar alike that like to smoke a little....low lifes? hardly! Scumbags? No! But somehow they are criminals? WTF?

And Jensen - this response was not entirely directed at your comment - so please don't take this as aimed entirely at you.

Peace,
Smitty (and no, I am NOT a stoner!)

PS - For the record I do not think any hard drugs should be legalized at all!!!!!!

[Sierra_Smitty]

Drugs should not be legalized, Drugs kill not even up for debate.

Those who say Marijuana isn't a gateway drug are full of ****. Just ask my college roommate oh wait, you can't he's dead from drug use that all started with the green ****.

Maybe if he could have bought it at the 7/11 instead of from a "drug dealer" it might be different.

No offense intended Greep - your friend's story is sad, but it could just as easily been (and probably was) sneaking booze from his folks liquor cabinet that sent him down that road.

[matt duarte]

about pot being a gateway drug...you cant say it is and cant say it isnt.. most of the time people who are addicted to, lets say cocaine...most likley they have smoked pot so people assume its a gateway drug and it led to other uses..i dont think so.. pot is normaly the first "drug" of choice because is the usually the easiest to get a hold of.. i mean in high school i did my fair share of expermenting.. and truthfully if i was handed LSD before pot i still would of did it...pot is normaly the first choice because its easy to get so people think gateway... IMO any drug can be a gateway drug it all depends on the persons personality

show me a dangerous pot head...haha thats like a oxymoron the 2 words just dont mesh well IMO hahaha

[dockboy]

Any drug you can get a hold of is a gateway drug, IMO. If your buddy is a user, and starts doing meth, and its easily available to you, that is likely the gateway drug. Pot is simply easier to get for most people. But so are cough syrup and hardcore prescription drugs for a lot of users. I believe, and this being a basis for starting this thread, that if you legalize pot and the enforcement money currently used to slow its use, you can focus on helping stop the flow of hard drugs, if they themselves are not legalized.

[BassFreak]

Do you know anybody I can get a big bag of cigarette tobacco from their fresh back yard crop?
I think if people could get it at the liquor store, they'd forgo the grow room. As with currently available products.
Keep growing for personal use and sale prohibited.

I do believe the end product cigarette is far different from the tobacco it begins as. that is why its so "toxic". in any case, i ermm.. (dont) have friends who grow their own green, and as you probably already know, it really isnt hard to buy some cheap anywhere yet they still grow their own.. I really dont see any of these people forgoeing the grow room to buy it at the corner liquor store..

[matt duarte]

I really dont see any of these people forgoeing the grow room to buy it at the corner liquor store..

maybe not everyone but people will go to the liquor store over a 800$ electric bill..outdoor suck its all about the indoor

[greeper]

Maybe if he could have bought it at the 7/11 instead of from a "drug dealer" it might be different.

No offense intended Greep - your friend's story is sad, but it could just as easily been (and probably was) sneaking booze from his folks liquor cabinet that sent him down that road.


Non taken bud especially coming from you bud,,, it was just a real bummer to lose this guy.. He was an awesome guy, extremely high IQ, was on his way to becoming a Doctor. He went from Marijuana to Coke for a brief period then heroin.. He mixed the stuff one day and his heart just shut down, the physician said the marijuana had really destroyed his lungs..

I also have a close family member that is in Prison for life due to meth and I recently lost one of my ex football players to heroin.

Opinions on this topic are like buttholes everyone has one and they all stink..

[WaterBound]

Ok. BTW, Waterbound; dont insult others. If you are going to insult me and others on here who post, dont post. You have no idea who I am, and I dont know you, DO NOT PLAY AD HOMINEM BULLSHIT. Thats not the idea here, and thats not logic. Judge not lest you be judged yourself.

That being said, I do hear the point on certain drugs and violent crime. Its proven in many cases, no doubt. But what percentage of those crimes are dealer related I wonder? It would be interesting to see those stats, IMO.
I'd also rather see our law enforcement fighting true drug dealers and criminals, not 15 year old kids selling and consuming pot. IMHO, eliminate the issue pot dealing and smoking brings up, and you allow more funds and therefore more successful prevention of other illegal substances.

The trends of use in heroin, crack, and other chemical drugs, with the exception of methamphetamines, have gone down in the last decade. Hence the reason the cartels in Mexico deal a majority in marijuana anymore. The US junkie demand has gone down incredibly on "hard" drugs. Obviously, I never would state to legalize meth. Its easy to find the substances needed produce illegally, dangerous to make, mentally and physically dangerous, and the potential for violent crime is increased. AS I stated in a earlier post here :Smile:

Someone brought up my credibility. Im not a user, true. Im not involved in drug counter culture, also true. But I do attend UC Santa Cruz, one of the more liberal schools on drug use. Thats where this thread came from. I see it daily, and yesterday being the most prevalent day of the year for smoking, I thought it fit. Yes, people will say its college and it will happen, no doubt. But I also see, hear of, and know of dealers here who don't deal just pot but hard and dangerous prescription drugs also. Luckily, several of those people have been caught. But the issue still weighed heavily on my mind, and hence, I thought I would ask the opinion of those here on the board.

Ad hominem is a personal attack. Logic is about validity and not TRUTH. Validity has to do with STRUCTURE and NOT TRUTH! If you really studied your logic class better than you would know that EVEN VALID arguments WITH PROPER STRUCTURE are NOT AUTOMATICALLY TRUTHFUL because their contentions could not be SOUND. I work with youth and drug prevention with the Temple City School District through the guidance of Doug Sears, who just recently retired. You kind of do not know what you are talking about when you state things like heroine use and hard drug use is down. HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW THAT FOR SURE? YOU DON'T. Stats on illegal activities are just guesses and NOT ACCURATE. You can site all the sociological stats you want. In the end NO ONE REALLY knows the rates of drug use. EVERYONE JUDGES ME! It is their right. Of course I judge YOU. Especially when you tried to say that RELIGION should dictate morals and NOT LAWS. So while I ACTUALLY BATTLE this problem in the REAL WORLD. You just do what??? What have you really done to help in this situation? How many youths do you mentor and speak with on the issue of drug abuse? I personally try to focus on gangs, but always somehow have to get in to drugs. Especially with parents. Someone mentioned that they could spot a pot head pretty easily. I think that statement is WRONG! I have even met plenty of meth users and pot heads who can remain CALM when high. It is all about practice and mind control. For instance MOST METH USERS know how to control their heartbeat. It is about mind over matter. Tibetan buddhist monks can raise their internal temperature almost 10 degrees. Martial Artists conduct pain training such as Iron Palm training and conditioning the bridges. As for your point about violent crime and drug dealers. It is a NEW FACT that unsolved murders are on the rise. Law enforcement suspect it has to do with drug deals, because parents and friends do not always know who their children get their drugs from. Because of this anonymity it is more difficult to solve murders because of DL scores. That is one theory in any case. However I do not totally agree. When someone finds a dealer, they usually spread the love and get their friends in on the action. So I do not really agree with that theory. Parents of course will not know the dealers, but I feel friends will. If they are your REAL friends they will have your BACK. In the end you said it yourself. YOU ARE NOT INVOLVED IN DRUG COUNTER CULTURE. Are you involved with drug treatment or prevention? Think about it before you start to talk about policies on abuse that YOU CAN NEVER empathize with.

[WaterBound]

What about other proven side effects of pot:



Typical Marijuana Side Effects:


Enhanced cancer risk
Decrease in testosterone levels and lower sperm counts for men
Increase in testosterone levels for women and increased risk of infertility
Diminished or extinguished sexual pleasure
Psychological dependence requiring more of the drug to get the same effect
Sleepiness
Difficulty keeping track of time, impaired or reduced short-term memory
Reduced ability to perform tasks requiring concentration and coordination,
such as driving a car
Increased heart rate
Potential cardiac dangers for those with preexisting heart disease
Bloodshot eyes
Dry mouth and throat
Decreased social inhibitions
Paranoia, hallucinations
Impaired or reduced comprehension
Altered motivation and cognition, making the acquisition of new information difficult
Paranoia
Psychological dependence
Impairments in learning and memory, perception, and judgment - difficulty
speaking, listening effectively, thinking, retaining knowledge, problem solving,
and forming concepts
Intense anxiety or panic attacks


and of course the non-stop use of the words or phrases:


1.totally
2.for sure dude
3.right on brah!
etc.etc.etc

Not all of the side effects of pot legalization are positive!

But then again,i guess we'll need all of the tax revenue to pay for the increased gov't assistance for all of those who no longer have the drive or mental compacity to hold down a job or who suffer from paranoia and are unable to function as a normal self supporting human being.

But what do i know?

SO MUCH OF WHAT YOU SAID IS MEDICALLY FALSE! First of all you can vaporize your meds. This gets rid of your cancer risks. Second you DON"T understand the physical medium that is being smoked. Tobacco is sold in LEAF form. Medical Dah Ma are the FLOWERS. This means it has LESS carcinogenic tar. However people do not use filters when smoking Medical Dah Ma. So the smoking risks are still bad. NOT THE EDIBLES OR VAPORIZING. However THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A SINGLE STUDY TO PROVE Medical Dah Ma has EVER CAUSED LUNG CANCER! NOT ONE! FACT from the Centers for Disease Control- There HAS NEVER BEEN A DOCUMENTED CASE OF ANYONE EVER DYING FROM Marijuana! NEVER IN ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY. If you have a case PRESENT IT to the CDC or ANY credible medical journal. Now since we are trying to be honest here. I WILL break down the KNOWN and PROVEN harmful effects. It has been shown that SHORT TERM MEMORY LOSS has been documented in patients. The question and controversy remains over whether or not the loss is permanent or can the short term memory return. For example we now know from studies done on London cab drivers that the hippocampus can actually still grow and develop in size for adults. Studying seems to stimulate this reaction. So there are things that can be done to improve neurological activity over time. In the 70s psychologists discovered a concept called STATE DEPENDENCY. They found that students who studied stoned ACTUALLY DID BETTER IF THEY TOOK THE TEST STONED! It is called state dependency. Kind of like the encoding of memories with chemical reactions related to fight or flight. So the statement about Dah Ma making you STUPID or less intelligent or SLOWER is NOT TRUE. Now you can put two people in a study together. The pot smoker will be able to consume more pot and still function better than an alcoholic. In fact NORML released a study that found that Marijuana drivers WERE SAFER than alcoholic drivers because there is less impairment of motor functions. Also they theorized that it was because pot smokers drive SLOWER. They are naturally more CAUTIOUS. Alcohol causes MORE VIOLENCE THAN STEROIDS! Alcoholic drivers tend to push their limits. Your evidence of sperm counts ARE WRONG! Plenty of pot heads have HEALTHY babies. So your statement about infertility is also WRONG! Paranoia is more of a reaction than an inherent symptom of Dah Ma use. OMG you stated there was diminished or decreased SEXUAL PLEASURE. YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE NEVER HAD GOOD SEX. Any POT HEAD will tell you the OPPOSITE! High Times has printed thousands of articles discussing the enhancement of sex from THC. Most of your side effects like dry mouth and throat are MUCH WORSE when alcohol is involved. IN FACT ALCOHOL DEHYDRATES YOU! OK another side effect that seems to arise is gynecomastia. Some men cannot handle the munchies and over eat. The stoner fat boy stereotype is very much a reality. Some long term smokers actually develop higher percentages of fat and grow male breasts. Even though studies have shown that it is NOT ABSOLUTE. There still is a risk of forming male breasts. Oh and your language give aways. I heard white kids in the SF valley using those terms before they were ever old enough to use drugs. So if I speak like a FOB then I must be a FOB gangster RIGHT? I really do not understand your reasoning there. Next time use REAL STONER LANGUAGE. Things like blaze, to the head, pine coned, blunted, faded, stoned and Chinese-eyed are real tell tell language clues. In the end you should really think about your BIAS. Especially when you stereotype all Dah Ma users as people who have no drive to hold down a job. Oh and I forgot to mention. The largest and longest study done on Dah Ma use was conducted on Vietnam Veterans. It was a 30 year study. Basically the scans revealed that users had impaired brain activity. They had many physical and psychological issues that were used to fuel the attacks on Dah Ma. However the study was not very credible in my opinion. First these vets used OTHER drugs TOO. Second they were all ****** up from the WAR. They had PTSD and many other STDs. I don't see how they could isolate all the damage caused from Dah Ma. As far as a gateway drug. Any kind of rebellious behavior such as stealing ice cream from the fridge in the night when you are a kid CAN ALSO BE GATEWAY behavior. You set a precedence for doing what you are not supposed to do. When you get away with it, you learn to try and get away with other things you are not supposed to do. I still don't use a gateway theory to attack some kid sneaking ice cream in the night. Marijuana may be a gateway because the GOV and people like YOU LIE and SPREAD FALSE information on Marijuana. The kids don't believe it. They try it and they DON’T go through "reefer madness". They tend to believe the Gov and mentors LIED to them, which THEY DID! Reefer Madness! So they decide to try other things. Unfortunately it leads to physically addictive substances. So yeah Marijuana DOES have side effects, but they are not as bad as those from alcohol and smoking tobacco. Everything on your SO-CALLED list actually is amplified when using alcohol or tobacco. Marijuana actually causes less of your SO-CALLED symptoms.

[WaterBound]

Drugs should not be legalized, Drugs kill not even up for debate.

Those who say Marijuana isn't a gateway drug are full of ****. Just ask my college roommate oh wait, you can't he's dead from drug use that all started with the green ****.

THAT IS ONE OF THE STUPIDEST THINGS I HAVE EVER HEARD! Drugs kill people, but THEY ALSO SAVE LIVES and provide relief for BILLIONS of patients around the WORLD! You meant NARCOTICS are BAD. So your claim is WRONG! Just because YOUR friend ****** UP his life, doesn't mean the "PLANT" did it. WHY DON'T ALL "PLANT" USERS END UP LIKE YOUR FRIEND THEN??? And you insulted me on the lawyer thing before. Man you need to LEARN the definition of the terms you use before you make FALSE statements.

[JENSEN500]

SO MUCH OF WHAT YOU SAID IS MEDICALLY FALSE! First of all you can vaporize your meds. This gets rid of your cancer risks. Second you DON"T understand the physical medium that is being smoked. Tobacco is sold in LEAF form. Medical Dah Ma are the FLOWERS. This means it has LESS carcinogenic tar. However people do not use filters when smoking Medical Dah Ma. So the smoking risks are still bad. NOT THE EDIBLES OR VAPORIZING. However THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A SINGLE STUDY TO PROVE Medical Dah Ma has EVER CAUSED LUNG CANCER! NOT ONE! FACT from the Centers for Disease Control- There HAS NEVER BEEN A DOCUMENTED CASE OF ANYONE EVER DYING FROM Marijuana! NEVER IN ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY. If you have a case PRESENT IT to the CDC or ANY credible medical journal. Now since we are trying to be honest here. I WILL break down the KNOWN and PROVEN harmful effects. It has been shown that SHORT TERM MEMORY LOSS has been documented in patients. The question and controversy remains over whether or not the loss is permanent or can the short term memory return. For example we now know from studies done on London cab drivers that the hippocampus can actually still grow and develop in size for adults. Studying seems to stimulate this reaction. So there are things that can be done to improve neurological activity over time. In the 70s psychologists discovered a concept called STATE DEPENDENCY. They found that students who studied stoned ACTUALLY DID BETTER IF THEY TOOK THE TEST STONED! It is called state dependency. Kind of like the encoding of memories with chemical reactions related to fight or flight. So the statement about Dah Ma making you STUPID or less intelligent or SLOWER is NOT TRUE. Now you can put two people in a study together. The pot smoker will be able to consume more pot and still function better than an alcoholic. In fact NORML released a study that found that Marijuana drivers WERE SAFER than alcoholic drivers because there is less impairment of motor functions. Also they theorized that it was because pot smokers drive SLOWER. They are naturally more CAUTIOUS. Alcohol causes MORE VIOLENCE THAN STEROIDS! Alcoholic drivers tend to push their limits. Your evidence of sperm counts ARE WRONG! Plenty of pot heads have HEALTHY babies. So your statement about infertility is also WRONG! Paranoia is more of a reaction than an inherent symptom of Dah Ma use. OMG you stated there was diminished or decreased SEXUAL PLEASURE. YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE NEVER HAD GOOD SEX. Any POT HEAD will tell you the OPPOSITE! High Times has printed thousands of articles discussing the enhancement of sex from THC. Most of your side effects like dry mouth and throat are MUCH WORSE when alcohol is involved. IN FACT ALCOHOL DEHYDRATES YOU! OK another side effect that seems to arise is gynecomastia. Some men cannot handle the munchies and over eat. The stoner fat boy stereotype is very much a reality. Some long term smokers actually develop higher percentages of fat and grow male breasts. Even though studies have shown that it is NOT ABSOLUTE. There still is a risk of forming male breasts. Oh and your language give aways. I heard white kids in the SF valley using those terms before they were ever old enough to use drugs. So if I speak like a FOB then I must be a FOB gangster RIGHT? I really do not understand your reasoning there. Next time use REAL STONER LANGUAGE. Things like blaze, to the head, pine coned, blunted, faded, stoned and Chinese-eyed are real tell tell language clues. In the end you should really think about your BIAS. Especially when you stereotype all Dah Ma users as people who have no drive to hold down a job. Oh and I forgot to mention. The largest and longest study done on Dah Ma use was conducted on Vietnam Veterans. It was a 30 year study. Basically the scans revealed that users had impaired brain activity. They had many physical and psychological issues that were used to fuel the attacks on Dah Ma. However the study was not very credible in my opinion. First these vets used OTHER drugs TOO. Second they were all ****** up from the WAR. They had PTSD and many other STDs. I don't see how they could isolate all the damage caused from Dah Ma. As far as a gateway drug. Any kind of rebellious behavior such as stealing ice cream from the fridge in the night when you are a kid CAN ALSO BE GATEWAY behavior. You set a precedence for doing what you are not supposed to do. When you get away with it, you learn to try and get away with other things you are not supposed to do. I still don't use a gateway theory to attack some kid sneaking ice cream in the night. Marijuana may be a gateway because the GOV and people like YOU LIE and SPREAD FALSE information on Marijuana. The kids don't believe it. They try it and they DON’T go through "reefer madness". They tend to believe the Gov and mentors LIED to them, which THEY DID! Reefer Madness! So they decide to try other things. Unfortunately it leads to physically addictive substances. So yeah Marijuana DOES have side effects, but they are not as bad as those from alcohol and smoking tobacco. Everything on your SO-CALLED list actually is amplified when using alcohol or tobacco. Marijuana actually causes less of your SO-CALLED symptoms.

What are you?A doctor!? These are medical facts!!! No one has ever dies from pot!?

http://www.drugwatch.org/CEDARS/MarDeaths2002e.pdf

They found that students who studied stoned ACTUALLY DID BETTER IF THEY TOOK THE TEST STONED!

Imagine how they would have done if they studied and took the test sober!

So the statement about Dah Ma making you STUPID or less intelligent or SLOWER is NOT TRUE.

You cannot be serious! Are you telling me that MANY (not all)l of the stoners i've ever met ARE PLAYING STUPID! They talk like thier mind is going in reverse on purpose! C'mon!

So if I speak like a FOB then I must be a FOB gangster RIGHT? I really do not understand your reasoning there. Next time use REAL STONER LANGUAGE. Things like blaze, to the head, pine coned, blunted, faded, stoned and Chinese-eyed are real tell tell language clues. In the end you should really think about your BIAS.

Sorry,i'll try to get the lingo down next time.Maybe next time i get PINE CONED ill study a little harder,maybe ill pass my test too,as long as i test while im BLUNTED!



http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/marijuana-use-and-its-effects

http://www.marijuana-addiction.info/side-effects.htm

http://familydoctor.org/online/famdocen/home/common/addictions/drugs/485.html

http://www.nida.nih.gov/infofacts/marijuana.html

http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/drugawareness/marijuana1.html

Marijuana may be a gateway because the GOV and people like YOU LIE and SPREAD FALSE information on Marijuana.

Above are links different sites to explain the different effects of pot,but since you are a pro and know everything,i dont expect you to click any of them.

After all......DENIAL IS THE FIRST SYMPTOM A DRUG ABUSER HAS!

I dont profess to know all about this subject.But i can read and use the internet to learn and research topics.So all of the above statements i've made are from different medical resources avail. to all.

Im kinda unclear as to what credentials you have that allow you to decredit medical facts!

So bottom line is,you know more than the Doctor who study the effects of drug use,The gov't lies about it because it is really a safe drug,they just dont want to legalize it for no real reason, and i'm a liar because i've tried to educate but using medical facts to support my argument .Not only that,my family has many generations of drug/alcohol abusers leading my family to have struggled through it all including a family suicide 2 years ago because of dependancy. Dont tell me that pot is safe!!!!I know better.

My family used to own an addiction/dependancy resource center where we would see people come in for answers to their physical/emotional dependancy and to try to justify to themselves why they do what they do.Thier problem...........DENIAL!

READ THE FACTS AND DONT TRY TO TWIST THE TRUTH SO YOU CAN JUSTIFY IN YOUR HEAD,WHY IT IS OK TO DO THE THINGS YOU DO. YOU ARE WRONG!! FACT IS,SOME DAY IT WILL CATCH UP TO YOU,UNFORTUNATELY.

IM A RECOVERING ADDICT...........I KNOW!

[tacklejunkie]

You cannot be serious! Are you telling me that MANY (not all)l of the stoners i've ever met ARE PLAYING STUPID! They talk like thier mind is going in reverse on purpose!You don't even know all the stoners you have ever talked to. That's the funny part. Not everyone who smokes pot "talks like a stoner", acts "like a stoner", is "unsuccessful like a stoner" or comes right out admitting it. etc etc. I bet you've been delivered news by stoned anchor people and don't even know it.

All your information is searched up. Do you have any facts of life? Have you smoked and indulged yourself and know for sure? From how it sounds, I "highly" doubt it. Man if I knew anyone who had to talk perfect and not say DUDE, MAN, or whatever you think it is only potheads do, I wouldn't want to be anywhere around them because they probably have no sense of humor.

I know some extremely successful potheads who would laugh at your statements. It's funny how much you know about something you don't really know. Just because it didn't make you successful doesn't mean it doesn't work for others.

Partners I worked with at the Barkley Lab who design particle accelerators for the united states department of energy smoke on their lunch breaks. Half that freakin lab is loaded so high you'd never think they run the invisible light source or the Darht project or engineer micro flying robots with video cameras the size of a real fly or nano biomachines.

One more person.. Michael Phelps.. how many gold medals?
FTFW!
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/tacklejunkie/phelps.jpg

[greeper]

And you insulted me on the lawyer thing before. Man you need to LEARN the definition of the terms you use before you make FALSE statements.:ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL: I'll be sure to educate myself.

:LOL:
I'm sorry I didn't mean to upset you. You'll be ok go smoke your stuff you'll feel better I promise:Wink:.. You must be lonely if you're worried about being insulted on some lawyer thing:ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL: get over it big guy

[Sierra_Smitty]

Ad hominem is a personal attack. Logic is about validity and not TRUTH. Validity has to do with STRUCTURE and NOT TRUTH! If you really studied your logic class better than you would know that EVEN VALID arguments WITH PROPER STRUCTURE are NOT AUTOMATICALLY TRUTHFUL because their contentions could not be SOUND. I work with youth and drug prevention with the Temple City School District through the guidance of Doug Sears, who just recently retired. You kind of do not know what you are talking about when you state things like heroine use and hard drug use is down. HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW THAT FOR SURE? YOU DON'T. Stats on illegal activities are just guesses and NOT ACCURATE. You can site all the sociological stats you want. In the end NO ONE REALLY knows the rates of drug use. EVERYONE JUDGES ME! It is their right. Of course I judge YOU. Especially when you tried to say that RELIGION should dictate morals and NOT LAWS. So while I ACTUALLY BATTLE this problem in the REAL WORLD. You just do what??? What have you really done to help in this situation? How many youths do you mentor and speak with on the issue of drug abuse? I personally try to focus on gangs, but always somehow have to get in to drugs. Especially with parents. Someone mentioned that they could spot a pot head pretty easily. I think that statement is WRONG! I have even met plenty of meth users and pot heads who can remain CALM when high. It is all about practice and mind control. For instance MOST METH USERS know how to control their heartbeat. It is about mind over matter. Tibetan buddhist monks can raise their internal temperature almost 10 degrees. Martial Artists conduct pain training such as Iron Palm training and conditioning the bridges. As for your point about violent crime and drug dealers. It is a NEW FACT that unsolved murders are on the rise. Law enforcement suspect it has to do with drug deals, because parents and friends do not always know who their children get their drugs from. Because of this anonymity it is more difficult to solve murders because of DL scores. That is one theory in any case. However I do not totally agree. When someone finds a dealer, they usually spread the love and get their friends in on the action. So I do not really agree with that theory. Parents of course will not know the dealers, but I feel friends will. If they are your REAL friends they will have your BACK. In the end you said it yourself. YOU ARE NOT INVOLVED IN DRUG COUNTER CULTURE. Are you involved with drug treatment or prevention? Think about it before you start to talk about policies on abuse that YOU CAN NEVER empathize with.

You are an extremely condescending individual and very difficult to read.

Your credibility suffers when you start comparing tweekers to Buddhist monks and martial arts experts. Have you ever know a tweaker? Seriously? "most meth users know how to control their heart rate"? "mind over matter"? If tweakers had such excellent control of their body, wouldn't they quit?

Stats on illegal activities are just guessed at?

My gosh - it's almost like you're arguing against yourself with responses like that.

And just so you know, I'm not being condescending, I'm being argumentative. :-)

[James343]

What about other proven side effects of pot:



Typical Marijuana Side Effects:


Enhanced cancer risk
Decrease in testosterone levels and lower sperm counts for men
Increase in testosterone levels for women and increased risk of infertility
Diminished or extinguished sexual pleasure
Psychological dependence requiring more of the drug to get the same effect
Sleepiness
Difficulty keeping track of time, impaired or reduced short-term memory
Reduced ability to perform tasks requiring concentration and coordination,
such as driving a car
Increased heart rate
Potential cardiac dangers for those with preexisting heart disease
Bloodshot eyes
Dry mouth and throat
Decreased social inhibitions
Paranoia, hallucinations
Impaired or reduced comprehension
Altered motivation and cognition, making the acquisition of new information difficult
Paranoia
Psychological dependence
Impairments in learning and memory, perception, and judgment - difficulty
speaking, listening effectively, thinking, retaining knowledge, problem solving,
and forming concepts
Intense anxiety or panic attacks


and of course the non-stop use of the words or phrases:


1.totally
2.for sure dude
3.right on brah!
etc.etc.etc

Not all of the side effects of pot legalization are positive!

But then again,i guess we'll need all of the tax revenue to pay for the increased gov't assistance for all of those who no longer have the drive or mental compacity to hold down a job or who suffer from paranoia and are unable to function as a normal self supporting human being.

But what do i know?



Funny that sounds almost like the list of side effects for most prescription drugs you see commercial's for all the time...Yet they are perfectly legal just like alcohol and cigarettes.

One other thing please keep your general stereotyping to yourself my wife and I paid a combined $70,000 dollars in income tax alone last year so I think we did our part and the whole time we enjoyed smoking pot.



Alcohol
Alcohol goes directly into the bloodstream, physically affecting the whole body. Some illnesses and health problems caused by alcohol include:

* Hangovers. Headaches, nausea, vomiting, aches and pains all result from drinking too much. Drinking to the point of drunkenness makes you sick.

* Weight gain. Alcohol is not water. A beer has about 150 "empty" calories that provide few if any nutrients.

* High blood pressure. Along with being overweight, high blood pressure is associated with many serious health problems.

* Depressed immune system. Impaired immunity makes you more likely to contract viral illnesses such as flu and infections.

* Cancer. 2-4% of all cancer cases are related to alcohol. Upper digestive tract cancers are the most common, hitting the esophagus, mouth, larynx, and pharynx. Women who drink prior to menopause are more likely to develop breast cancer. Your risk of skin cancer doubles if you drink slightly more than "moderate levels." Some studies implicate alcohol in colon, stomach, pancreas and lung cancer. And let's not forget the liver...

* Liver disease. Heavy drinking can cause fatty liver, hepatitis, cirrhosis and cancer of the liver. The liver breaks down alcohol at the rate of only one drink per hour.

* Alcohol poisoning. Drinking large amounts can result in alcohol poisoning, which causes unconsciousness and even death. Breathing slows, and the skin becomes cold and may look blue. Don't let a person in this condition "sleep it off." Call 911.

* Heart or respiratory failure. Excessive drinking can have serious results. Heart or respiratory failure often means death.

[Sierra_Smitty]

One other thing please keep your general stereotyping to yourself my wife and I paid a combined $70,000 dollars in income tax alone last year so I think we did our part and the whole time we enjoyed smoking pot.
.

Dude, that's well more than I made last year - maybe I should start smoking. hahaha!!!!

[James343]

about pot being a gateway drug...you cant say it is and cant say it isnt.. most of the time people who are addicted to, lets say cocaine...most likley they have smoked pot so people assume its a gateway drug and it led to other uses..i dont think so.. pot is normaly the first "drug" of choice because is the usually the easiest to get a hold of.. i mean in high school i did my fair share of expermenting.. and truthfully if i was handed LSD before pot i still would of did it...pot is normaly the first choice because its easy to get so people think gateway... IMO any drug can be a gateway drug it all depends on the persons personality

show me a dangerous pot head...haha thats like a oxymoron the 2 words just dont mesh well IMO hahaha

Great point! I think the true gateway drugs are the first ones you have an opportunity to get.

[JENSEN500]

You don't even know all the stoners you have ever talked to. That's the funny part. Not everyone who smokes pot "talks like a stoner", acts "like a stoner", is "unsuccessful like a stoner" or comes right out admitting it. etc etc. I bet you've been delivered news by stoned anchor people and don't even know it.

All your information is searched up. Do you have any facts of life? Have you smoked and indulged yourself and know for sure? From how it sounds, I "highly" doubt it. Man if I knew anyone who had to talk perfect and not say DUDE, MAN, or whatever you think it is only potheads do, I wouldn't want to be anywhere around them because they probably have no sense of humor.

I know some extremely successful potheads who would laugh at your statements. It's funny how much you know about something you don't really know. Just because it didn't make you successful doesn't mean it doesn't work for others.

Partners I worked with at the Barkley Lab who design particle accelerators for the united states department of energy smoke on their lunch breaks. Half that freakin lab is loaded so high you'd never think they run the invisible light source or the Darht project or engineer micro flying robots with video cameras the size of a real fly or nano biomachines.

One more person.. Michael Phelps.. how many gold medals?
FTFW!
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/tacklejunkie/phelps.jpg



I never said that there aren't successful dope heads! If you look at my post where it say "MANY" not all of the stoners i've met are playing stupid!!!!!

Read the whole post and you will find answers to most of the questions you are asking me!

YES,ive had life experiances!!!!!! the end of my post states..."I'M A RECOVERING ADDICT.......I KNOW!!!

One more person.. Michael Phelps.. how many gold medals? WHO GIVES A ****! ARE YOU TELLING ME HE IS A GREAT SWIMMER BECAUSE HE SMOKES POT! I DONT THINK SO!


Man if I knew anyone who had to talk perfect and not say DUDE, MAN, or whatever you think it is only potheads do, I wouldn't want to be anywhere around them because they probably have no sense of humor.


this was put in there as a joke,i mean DAMN! i talk like that!!
doesn't mean im an idiot.


I will now accept the fact that ,appearently,those who smoke pot have done the research and studied the long and short term effects of pot and therefore know more than the scientists' and doctors know and will accept the fact that they are wrong and you guys are right.


DAMN...........I WISH I WAS SMARTER THAN THE REST!!!

[JENSEN500]

Funny that sounds almost like the list of side effects for most prescription drugs you see commercial's for all the time...Yet they are perfectly legal just like alcohol and cigarettes.

One other thing please keep your general stereotyping to yourself my wife and I paid a combined $70,000 dollars in income tax alone last year so I think we did our part and the whole time we enjoyed smoking pot.


RIGHT!! GOOD ONE!!!



I will NOT keep to myself!!! If you dont like the topic,stay away!!

And i agree that sounds like the side effect....blah...blah...blah

you guys just dont get it!

[James343]

I do believe the end product cigarette is far different from the tobacco it begins as. that is why its so "toxic". in any case, i ermm.. (dont) have friends who grow their own green, and as you probably already know, it really isnt hard to buy some cheap anywhere yet they still grow their own.. I really dont see any of these people forgoeing the grow room to buy it at the corner liquor store..


People can grow there own produce as well yet we still have a million stores that sell it.

[James343]

RIGHT!! GOOD ONE!!!



I will NOT keep to myself!!! If you dont like the topic,stay away!!

And i agree that sounds like the side effect....blah...blah...blah

you guys just dont get it!

Its not that I don't like the topic I just find your generalizations to be insulting.

[tacklejunkie]

No offense meant Jensen.
Just my 2.

Touchy subject for many, it would seem.

I don't suppose it would be possible to "test" legalization. Then people would be pissed when it was taken away again if it didn't work.

There has to be some sort of compromise somewhere. Many people have proven Marijuana is no better than other substances currently legal and it also does have positive qualities that some of those other substances do not.

[James343]

Dude, that's well more than I made last year - maybe I should start smoking. hahaha!!!!


Yeah but I have seen pictures of where you get to live and work. I would gladly trade my job away to be able to do what you do.

[JENSEN500]

Its not that I don't like the topic I just find your generalizations to be insulting.

Fair enough.

This topic was formed to express views on the legalization of pot.It seems to have taken a different road,so this will be my last post and i'll end by saying this.......I never intended to insult anyone.I was expressing my opinion and tried to add the "facts" on the subject i've found on various sites,as written by Doctors and Scientists specializing in the study of short and long term effects of marijuana use.
I too have many life experiences,not only with pot,but with other drugs as well.I know many that struggle with addiction but will deny they have an addiction 'til the day is long.

Again,i never intended to insult anyone and hope that we can agree to disagree.

Hope to see ya on the lake and tight lines to all,

jeff

[JENSEN500]

No offense meant Jensen.
Just my 2.

Touchy subject for many, it would seem.

I don't suppose it would be possible to "test" legalization. Then people would be pissed when it was taken away again if it didn't work.

There has to be some sort of compromise somewhere. Many people have proven Marijuana is no better than other substances currently legal and it also does have positive qualities that some of those other substances do not.

None taken T.J.

Kinda nice to have a forum we can argue and stub each other,then click the mouse and make plans to fish together the next day.

God, I love this country!

thanks,jeff









P.S. If anyone needs some good Hydro.,P.M. me LOL j/k

[sansou]

Does anyone ever purposely go and score weak pot?

It's been my observation that most users seek out the strongest/most potent marijuana they can (a) get their hands on (b) afford. In addition, no one I know actually smokes marijuana because they actually enjoy the taste and flavor of it in the absence of THC. People smoke it because they want to get STONED.

From personal experience, with regard to alcohol, as a social drinker, I do not purposely seek out alcohol with the highest "proof" rating (well, maybe when I was 16 years old). If I drink it, it is for taste, not to get DRUNK. On far lesser occasions, I do have drinks for the sedative qualities it brings, yet, even on such occasions, I do not actively seek out 190 proof drinks.

With this in mind, on the pragmatic issue of operating an automobile:

As unpolitically correct as it sounds, I personally can have a beer or two, and be perfectly within legal BAC limits to drive an automobile. That is a fact which I have tested, and it is based on several key factors (principally my body weight)

Could the same be said about the marijuana user after he/she smokes up some pot? (be within VC 23152 exhibit "some degree of impairment"?) Besides, do you really feel safe being driven by someone who is high on drugs as compared to someone who just had a beer or two and is well under .08?

I am cognicent that for some individuals (rested and fed), drinking 2 beers in an hour could get you to .08 (probably somewhere under 140lbs), however, the same couldn't be said of the guy/gal who smokes up some potent pot. (Remember, dosaging with regard to marijuana smoking is very difficult.) Of course, one could argue a true regular MJ user could probably smoke up medical grade MJ, and be somewhat fine to drive (but technically legally impaired still)....as the same could be said of an alcoholic.

I am also cognicent that while I might think that I am "ok" to drive after 2 drinks in an hour, the fact remains I am legally able to do so. The same can't really be said of smoking MJ.

Just some narrow points I am pondering, as I keep reading extreme examples that are over-stated as if cyrrhosis of the liver occurs to anyone who has a Zima. Amongst moderate drinkers, I think the currently fashioned "alcohol vs. MJ" argument, as expounded by NORML and other pro-pot orgs, fails to sufficiently address this (amongst other points, such as the cultural distinction between the two)

If it matters to you for argument or persuasive sake which way you think I cast my vote, let it be known I am hesitantly PRO decriminalization of marijuana for California, but staunchly against full legalization. I favor a state's right to democratically legislate this issue absent federal interference.

[DarkShadow]

I think after reading some of these responses, I'm gonna have to start doing drugs so my head stops hurting.


let it be known I am hesitantly PRO decriminalization of marijuana for California

You hippie.



I favor a state's right to democratically legislate this issue absent federal interference.

AND a Patrick Henry fan to boot?!

[Sierra_Smitty]

Does anyone ever purposely go and score weak pot?

It's been my observation that most users seek out the strongest/most potent marijuana they can (a) get their hands on (b) afford. In addition, no one I know actually smokes marijuana because they actually enjoy the taste and flavor of it in the absence of THC. People smoke it because they want to get STONED.

From personal experience, with regard to alcohol, as a social drinker, I do not purposely seek out alcohol with the highest "proof" rating (well, maybe when I was 16 years old). If I drink it, it is for taste, not to get DRUNK. On far lesser occasions, I do have drinks for the sedative qualities it brings, yet, even on such occasions, I do not actively seek out 190 proof drinks.

With this in mind, on the pragmatic issue of operating an automobile:

As unpolitically correct as it sounds, I personally can have a beer or two, and be perfectly within legal BAC limits to drive an automobile. That is a fact which I have tested, and it is based on several key factors (principally my body weight)

Could the same be said about the marijuana user after he/she smokes up some pot? (be within VC 23152 exhibit "some degree of impairment"?) Besides, do you really feel safe being driven by someone who is high on drugs as compared to someone who just had a beer or two and is well under .08?

I am cognicent that for some individuals (rested and fed), drinking 2 beers in an hour could get you to .08 (probably somewhere under 140lbs), however, the same couldn't be said of the guy/gal who smokes up some potent pot. (Remember, dosaging with regard to marijuana smoking is very difficult.) Of course, one could argue a true regular MJ user could probably smoke up medical grade MJ, and be somewhat fine to drive (but technically legally impaired still)....as the same could be said of an alcoholic.

I am also cognicent that while I might think that I am "ok" to drive after 2 drinks in an hour, the fact remains I am legally able to do so. The same can't really be said of smoking MJ.

Just some narrow points I am pondering, as I keep reading extreme examples that are over-stated as if cyrrhosis of the liver occurs to anyone who has a Zima. Amongst moderate drinkers, I think the currently fashioned "alcohol vs. MJ" argument, as expounded by NORML and other pro-pot orgs, fails to sufficiently address this (amongst other points, such as the cultural distinction between the two)

If it matters to you for argument or persuasive sake which way you think I cast my vote, let it be known I am hesitantly PRO decriminalization of marijuana for California, but staunchly against full legalization. I favor a state's right to democratically legislate this issue absent federal interference.

Agree or disagree, you never disappoint when you share your opinion. Always well thought out and eloquently presented......

If decriminalized, there would definitely be some tough questions to answer with regard to regulation of use and public safety...like, what is too high to drive? How much and under what conditions should you be able to grow it (think health regs for breweries or distilleries)? Legal age for use? Tax or not? And so on and so forth...

While I do understand your comment regarding your typical use of alcohol (for the taste) - I'm not sure that one's reason for smoking or drinking is relevant when it comes to whether or not the government should be involved.

I like your focus on state's rights vs federal interference...this is usually a good thing IMO.

[troutdog]

After 65+ replies and such heated debate that will never truely be settled here on FNN, I think we should break for intermission and have a laugh or two.

Now I am NOT a "Family Guy" fan, but this was just emailed to me and made me think of this thread....hopefully this does not offend anyone, as this is only in good fun.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/68615/family-guy-bag-of-weed (http://www.hulu.com/watch/68615/family-guy-bag-of-weed)




*The opinions and views expressed by "Family Guy" don't necessarily reflect the views of "troutdog" or those he slays fish with :Wink:


TD

[dockboy]

YOU OBVIOUSLY are VERY conservative and SHELTERED if you think legalizing drugs will really lower their consumption

sorry to beat a dead horse guys but......this is BS. You specifically decry the fact that I mislabeled your attack as as hominem, Waterbound. But.....what would you call the above statement? Seems a lot like a personal attack (Ad Hominem) when you attack somebody not based on their views, logic, and prior actions but rather by your own judgements and bias.

Sansou: thank you for contributing. You do bring up a very valid point. I DID state cyrrhosis of the liver would occurr with drinking. I failed to cite it as a condition of chronic heavy drinking. Thank you for correcting me.

I certainly see benefits in partial legalization and back decriminalization in full. I think if legalization were to occur, there would without a doubt need to be regulations in their usage, and their effects of operating a vehicle, as alcohol is. However, marijuana really is a different dimension from drinking and smoking, as you stated, and its uses for completely different end results.

As has been stated, I started this topic to see what people thought. Its obviously a very sensitive issue today, and I wanted to see what the board thought of it, nothing more. Its never going to be a win-win situation, and it really is nothing more than a sticky mess in many cases with opinions to be heard from all points. We all have our opinions, and sometimes when a topic stinks, there no way around the fact that most the options surrounding it will too. Really can't pick a turd by the clean end :Wink:

[newster]

Legalization is not a magical cure-all by any means when it comes to marijuana. In the end, I see it as swapping positives and negatives, and anyone who wants to make a decision on the matter needs to access whether or not the pros and cons you exchange in the process of legalization are worth it. Personally, I feel that legalization as a fix would be playing towards what is negative in society to fix the problem, as opposed to leading by ideals, but here are some questions to consider:

1. Tax revenue will increase and spending will decrease in busting pot smokers, but enforcement revenue will also increase (people driving while high, working while high, operating heavy machinery while high). Drunk driving is a major problem in society, and now we will have to deal with drunk, and high driving. Whereas before a high driver with pot in their possession would be facing some serious punishment, they now face a slap on the wrist and many innocent fatalities are sure to follow I guarantee it. Will having more money go into the hands of our inept government be worth the greater risk we are putting ourselves and our children in? Most people can only see themselves as the responsible example, but when you make a law, you have to think in the real terms of how responsible the average person is. What I am able to handle will not be the norm, but more likely the exception to the rule. How will society as a whole handle this new freedom? How about all the costs associated with medical treatment for all the diseases directly linked to alcohol and tobacco use? Does the tax revenue from those products really cover that? I highly doubt it, because the CEO's of those companies are still driving their exotic cars and yachts while people are getting their lungs or livers removed if they are lucky, and terminal cancer or fatal car accident if they are unlucky. For me there are better solutions to revenue than legalization. Much like Obama advocates, we don't need the legalize it to stop wasting tax dollars cracking down on it and prosecuting pot use. A better solution in the long run in my opinion is to keep it illegal, but to have law enforcement focus on more immediately dangerous drugs and not waste time and money prosecuting pot users. I don't think any marijuana advocates would be against that, and then there will still be a societal awareness of the dangers of marijuana and more careful use of it.

2. There are plenty of countries in the world where pot is legal, among other things that illegal here. Do we really want our country to be like those countries? For you, the answer might be yes. If so, then you definitely have the freedom to move. For me, the answer is no. The reason I love America, despite its many flaws, is because we (used to) believe in the goodness of humanity and work towards that ideal. Now, I feel as if we are playing towards the lowest common denominator and doing what is popular as opposed to what is beneficial for everyone. Ask yourself this question: what is the better country to pursue happiness (having a house, a good career, entertainment, raising a family, insert your own...) in all other things being equal; A) one where every single morally ambiguous thing was legal including drugs, prostitution, amongst others, or B) one where not only all drugs and prostitution were illegal, but people didn't do those illegal activities? Now you might say answer B is loaded because it is impossible for there to be no drug use and prostitution, but I personally would choose B. It is impossible to achieve, but we can strive for it and work for it because it is worth it. Or, we can give up and just cash in on what we can moving closer toward option A. That is just my opinion, and fish don't care if you use drugs or you don't, so I look forward to further opinions on the matter.

[James343]

Legalization is not a magical cure-all by any means when it comes to marijuana. In the end, I see it as swapping positives and negatives, and anyone who wants to make a decision on the matter needs to access whether or not the pros and cons you exchange in the process of legalization are worth it. Personally, I feel that legalization as a fix would be playing towards what is negative in society to fix the problem, as opposed to leading by ideals, but here are some questions to consider:

1. Tax revenue will increase and spending will decrease in busting pot smokers, but enforcement revenue will also increase (people driving while high, working while high, operating heavy machinery while high). Drunk driving is a major problem in society, and now we will have to deal with drunk, and high driving. Whereas before a high driver with pot in their possession would be facing some serious punishment, they now face a slap on the wrist and many innocent fatalities are sure to follow I guarantee it. Will having more money go into the hands of our inept government be worth the greater risk we are putting ourselves and our children in? Most people can only see themselves as the responsible example, but when you make a law, you have to think in the real terms of how responsible the average person is. What I am able to handle will not be the norm, but more likely the exception to the rule. How will society as a whole handle this new freedom? How about all the costs associated with medical treatment for all the diseases directly linked to alcohol and tobacco use? Does the tax revenue from those products really cover that? I highly doubt it, because the CEO's of those companies are still driving their exotic cars and yachts while people are getting their lungs or livers removed if they are lucky, and terminal cancer or fatal car accident if they are unlucky. For me there are better solutions to revenue than legalization. Much like Obama advocates, we don't need the legalize it to stop wasting tax dollars cracking down on it and prosecuting pot use. A better solution in the long run in my opinion is to keep it illegal, but to have law enforcement focus on more immediately dangerous drugs and not waste time and money prosecuting pot users. I don't think any marijuana advocates would be against that, and then there will still be a societal awareness of the dangers of marijuana and more careful use of it.

2. There are plenty of countries in the world where pot is legal, among other things that illegal here. Do we really want our country to be like those countries? For you, the answer might be yes. If so, then you definitely have the freedom to move. For me, the answer is no. The reason I love America, despite its many flaws, is because we (used to) believe in the goodness of humanity and work towards that ideal. Now, I feel as if we are playing towards the lowest common denominator and doing what is popular as opposed to what is beneficial for everyone. Ask yourself this question: what is the better country to pursue happiness (having a house, a good career, entertainment, raising a family, insert your own...) in all other things being equal; A) one where every single morally ambiguous thing was legal including drugs, prostitution, amongst others, or B) one where not only all drugs and prostitution were illegal, but people didn't do those illegal activities? Now you might say answer B is loaded because it is impossible for there to be no drug use and prostitution, but I personally would choose B. It is impossible to achieve, but we can strive for it and work for it because it is worth it. Or, we can give up and just cash in on what we can moving closer toward option A. That is just my opinion, and fish don't care if you use drugs or you don't, so I look forward to further opinions on the matter.

Nice reply I don't agree with it 100% but it was definitely well stated and makes me think a little deeper on the subject.

[GeordyBass]

I suggest they make harsher laws to drug abuse period.

I don't care what anyone says,
When I see someone at school doing that I think what Idiots they are and think what my future children would be like doing that ****.

I don't expect any nice comments to what I said,but frankly,I don't care.

[Liteliner]

The last time i smoked weed i was probably 18 or so. My buddies got some good stuff and we had a bowl. The three of us were just chillin and eatin cheetos and 7 eleven super nachos. Those two fools played the echo game on me for like 30 minutes and man that was the worst feeling in the world. They stopped echoing but I was still hearing it. I was messed up bigtime. Next thing you know I puke out all my cheetos and super nachos mixed with hawain punch all over the sidewalk and knocked out afterwards......:EyePop:

Never touched that stuff again. Lesson learned....:Wink:

[sansou]

Liteliner Liteliner Liteliner Liteliner Liteliner Liteliner..

[BIGRED KILLA]

Does anyone ever purposely go and score weak pot?

It's been my observation that most users seek out the strongest/most potent marijuana they can (a) get their hands on (b) afford. In addition, no one I know actually smokes marijuana because they actually enjoy the taste and flavor of it in the absence of THC. People smoke it because they want to get STONED.

From personal experience, with regard to alcohol, as a social drinker, I do not purposely seek out alcohol with the highest "proof" rating (well, maybe when I was 16 years old). If I drink it, it is for taste, not to get DRUNK. On far lesser occasions, I do have drinks for the sedative qualities it brings, yet, even on such occasions, I do not actively seek out 190 proof drinks.

With this in mind, on the pragmatic issue of operating an automobile:

As unpolitically correct as it sounds, I personally can have a beer or two, and be perfectly within legal BAC limits to drive an automobile. That is a fact which I have tested, and it is based on several key factors (principally my body weight)

Could the same be said about the marijuana user after he/she smokes up some pot? (be within VC 23152 exhibit "some degree of impairment"?) Besides, do you really feel safe being driven by someone who is high on drugs as compared to someone who just had a beer or two and is well under .08?

I am cognicent that for some individuals (rested and fed), drinking 2 beers in an hour could get you to .08 (probably somewhere under 140lbs), however, the same couldn't be said of the guy/gal who smokes up some potent pot. (Remember, dosaging with regard to marijuana smoking is very difficult.) Of course, one could argue a true regular MJ user could probably smoke up medical grade MJ, and be somewhat fine to drive (but technically legally impaired still)....as the same could be said of an alcoholic.

I am also cognicent that while I might think that I am "ok" to drive after 2 drinks in an hour, the fact remains I am legally able to do so. The same can't really be said of smoking MJ.

Just some narrow points I am pondering, as I keep reading extreme examples that are over-stated as if cyrrhosis of the liver occurs to anyone who has a Zima. Amongst moderate drinkers, I think the currently fashioned "alcohol vs. MJ" argument, as expounded by NORML and other pro-pot orgs, fails to sufficiently address this (amongst other points, such as the cultural distinction between the two)

If it matters to you for argument or persuasive sake which way you think I cast my vote, let it be known I am hesitantly PRO decriminalization of marijuana for California, but staunchly against full legalization. I favor a state's right to democratically legislate this issue absent federal interference.



Man i think i need to start smoking weed to read this look at all these big words. lol





Bigred

[tacklejunkie]

Never touched that stuff again. Lesson learned
Sounds like my experiences with alcohol. Barfing cheetos and such. :ROFL:

[dockboy]

Sounds like my experiences with alcohol. Barfing cheetos and such.

lmao. so true. the night you eat the things that are most vividly colored, you spend the last part of it praying to porcelain gods. some bad horrid memories there lol

[matt duarte]

haha been there done that.... i drank a lil over a 12 of corona..and thought it was a good idea to eat a full plate of spagettie...bad idea..it all came back up! hahah the weird thing was the noodles were put all back together haha i know i chewed it it was pretty weird

[joe man]

Legalizing weed is a no brainer. The money this state spends on law enforcement would be greatly reduced. It would eliminate the plant and crop erradication task force that spends millions for helicopters and support vehicles. Not to mention the officers that could be doing something a little more important. Also it would make destroying National Forest land to grow pot go away. The revenues gained by taxation of something that is being bought and consumed anyway would help with the budget shortfalls in Sacremento. Also seems to me that it's constitutionaly wrong to allow smoking cigarettes and cigars and discriminating against marijuana. As far as all druds being legalized I'm not so sure. I will say that making drugs illegal creates more crime in my opinion. The problem is the destructive nature of some of these drugs (meth, crack, and heroin to name a few) inherently creates other social problems. Legalize the weed and prosecute the chemicals I think. :Beer Toast:

While I think you have made some good points I must disagree with your opinion that it would reduce the money spent on enforcement. If pot was as available as ciggerettes there would be a rise in crimes by the new addicts that would be hunting their fix.

Pot is often refered to as a gateway drug and from my experience with prisoners and addicts I have to agree that it usually leads to bigger problems. I will not argue against alcohol being just as bad but your idea that cigerettes are somehow equally on the same level as pot is a bit shortsighted. Cigerettes do not cause a drastic change on the thought process. As for budget shortfalls, it does not matter how much money the state brings in it will find a way to waste it all and then some.

[GeordyBass]

Man i think i need to start smoking weed to read this look at all these big words. lol





Bigreda.d.d.
:ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:

j/k

[lurk 182]

Drugs should not be legalized, Drugs kill not even up for debate.

Those who say Marijuana isn't a gateway drug are full of ****. Just ask my college roommate oh wait, you can't he's dead from drug use that all started with the green ****.

i've been waiting 4 pages for this one. guess the guy never touched a drink right? come on, i've been on the program a little while and nothing has ever made its way up my nose, into my vein, or into a rock pipe. we either legalize everything or outlaw the 2 real killers that are obviously the elephants in the room here.

[lurk 182]

The last time i smoked weed i was probably 18 or so. My buddies got some good stuff and we had a bowl. The three of us were just chillin and eatin cheetos and 7 eleven super nachos. Those two fools played the echo game on me for like 30 minutes and man that was the worst feeling in the world.

sounds like your friends were kooks, hope you never ate shrooms with those dudes, my goodness.

[newster]

i've been waiting 4 pages for this one. guess the guy never touched a drink right? come on, i've been on the program a little while and nothing has ever made its way up my nose, into my vein, or into a rock pipe. we either legalize everything or outlaw the 2 real killers that are obviously the elephants in the room here.

My question to you is have you ever been arrested or found it hard to buy pot? I have friends who have been smoking pot since 12 and 13 years old (they are mid - late 20's now) at least twice a week for years and none of them have ever been busted, or have moved on to more hard core drugs. However, they have all dropped out of college, or were unable to keep a job, etc, etc. I think about them, and my children, and my family when I consider how legalization will be beneficial or harmful. I do not consider only my situation. It is good that you have been able to live a normal life while smoking pot. There are millions of others who don't fare so well, however, and for those people's sake I would always vote against legalization.

[Liteliner]

My question to you is have you ever been arrested or found it hard to buy pot? I have friends who have been smoking pot since 12 and 13 years old (they are mid - late 20's now) at least twice a week for years and none of them have ever been busted, or have moved on to more hard core drugs. However, they have all dropped out of college, or were unable to keep a job, etc, etc. I think about them, and my children, and my family when I consider how legalization will be beneficial or harmful. I do not consider only my situation. It is good that you have been able to live a normal life while smoking pot. There are millions of others who don't fare so well, however, and for those people's sake I would always vote against legalization.


Well said. I vote NO aswell...

[Lightline]

Liteliner Liteliner Liteliner Liteliner Liteliner Liteliner..


:LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:LOL...

I knew a few guys who smoke some dubbies when they took their final exam in college and they did pretty well.

I knew some lawyers who smoke.

[James343]

Well said. I vote NO aswell...

No offense but this kind of thinking leads us down a slippery slope.

Imagine if we criminalized, banned, or restricted anything that had the potential to harm if used irresponsibly...

[JediMindTricks]

pot has been legal for ME for the last 7 years.
pot saved my life. literally!

[Skyler]

show me a dangerous pot head

Check, and mate, lol....
http://cerebraljetsam.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/gary-busey.jpg

Later, guys. I'm off to go smoke a bowl. All this weed talk has me jonesin', lol.

[makersmark]

RIGHT!! GOOD ONE!!!



I will NOT keep to myself!!! If you dont like the topic,stay away!!

And i agree that sounds like the side effect....blah...blah...blah

you guys just dont get it!

I think the problem is people without enough personal experience trying to add their 2 cents on the matter. These types of people only have online research to back up what they might already feel is fact. The problem with this is there are so many bias research articles out there that are not factual and based on political or profitable agendas. So without personal experience, you have no actual argument worth listening too. There are studies that both show marijuana is dangerous and studies that show it is not only safe, but beneficial. People that are still spewing "Reefer Madness" are VERY uneducated on the matter because they are basing their beliefs on absolute lies. Marijuana is no more harmful than alcohol or cigarettes, and doesn't cause a tenth of the crime or danger that those legal counterparts do.

Legalization is a better option for marijuana than keeping it illegal because the laws create criminals out of otherwise law abiding tax paying citizens. It costs tax payers roughly $45,000.00 per year to house one marijuana user in a jail cell, this is in addition to the funds used by the DEA or local law enforcement.

Current drug policy is taking law abiding tax payers and turning them into criminals for doing nothing more than the guy that goes home after work and unwinds with a few beers. The marijuana user, is then locked in a jail cell for a number of years, then upon release finding a decent job is near impossible, and whatever family you had before going to jail is probably ruined, and they have legal fees and fines to pay on top of all this. That is not only unfair, but also inhumane. Prohibition didn't work with alcohol and it isn't working with marijuana. We have wasted enough tax dollars trying to stop something that is personal choice, and the war on drugs is a huge failure. The laws simply are more destructive than the plant it self.

There are many of you that may know people that use marijuana on a daily basis, and you don't even know about it. I have personally used it for over 15 years, and I hold a great job, I have worked full time since I was in middle school and pay taxes every year. I play basketball at least 2 times a week, work out and fish as often as possible, hardly lazy. I am not a criminal by any stretch of the imagination, yet the current drug policy would call for me to sit in a jail cell at the tax payers expense while no longer contributing to society, ya I think its time to re address the drug policy. Its become a "war on our own citizens"

[makersmark]

My question to you is have you ever been arrested or found it hard to buy pot? I have friends who have been smoking pot since 12 and 13 years old (they are mid - late 20's now) at least twice a week for years and none of them have ever been busted, or have moved on to more hard core drugs. However, they have all dropped out of college, or were unable to keep a job, etc, etc. I think about them, and my children, and my family when I consider how legalization will be beneficial or harmful. I do not consider only my situation. It is good that you have been able to live a normal life while smoking pot. There are millions of others who don't fare so well, however, and for those people's sake I would always vote against legalization.

The same things can be said about alcohol and cigarettes, even fast food, so do you think those should be illegal too.

Also let me point something out, you have kids, and they are being considered in your decision as you say, but you are only looking at it from one view point. Yes some may think that if marijuana was legal their kids would get the wrong message. But kids will be kids, and a lot if not most now a days do experiment with marijuana at some point. They get the wrong message all day long if they watch TV. But the current laws are far worse for your kids, instead of just "getting the wrong idea" like they do with so many other things being advertised on TV, they would be taken away from you and locked up in a jail cell, and go through the system and end up a ex criminal with a damaging record that can and will effect their future, not to mention all the fines that you would be responsible for paying. the laws hurt our kids too.

[makersmark]

The last time i smoked weed i was probably 18 or so. My buddies got some good stuff and we had a bowl. The three of us were just chillin and eatin cheetos and 7 eleven super nachos. Those two fools played the echo game on me for like 30 minutes and man that was the worst feeling in the world. They stopped echoing but I was still hearing it. I was messed up bigtime. Next thing you know I puke out all my cheetos and super nachos mixed with hawain punch all over the sidewalk and knocked out afterwards......:EyePop:

Never touched that stuff again. Lesson learned....:Wink:

Sounds like you smoked too much for your first time, a person drinking a "regular amount" of liquor for their fist time would do the same.

[jim532]

Do you think Warren Buffet smokes pot? There's a good chance he doesn't. Name 1 pot smoker that has achieved maintained his financial status and lifestyle.

Do you think the 35 year old college dropout selling popcorn at the movie theater smokes pot. There's a good chance he does.

Is pot a "gateway drug"? Of course it is. I'm not saying if you smoke pot you'll go on to do other drugs, but most people who will never try marijunana will most likely not try heroine or meth or crack or pcp.

They can legalize marijuana but there will be one problem that will exist that exists with everything that is legal - There is a black market for everything and there always will be.

People who do any kind of dope seem to have poor judgement, poor spending habbits, and tend to unreliable and not very dependable.

My office is near Santa Monica and LaBrea, there are grown men walking around the neighborhood dressed like women and sucking c0ck to support their drug habbits. I would guess their drug using career probably started with smoking marijuana.

[makersmark]

While I think you have made some good points I must disagree with your opinion that it would reduce the money spent on enforcement. If pot was as available as ciggerettes there would be a rise in crimes by the new addicts that would be hunting their fix.

Pot is often refered to as a gateway drug and from my experience with prisoners and addicts I have to agree that it usually leads to bigger problems. I will not argue against alcohol being just as bad but your idea that cigerettes are somehow equally on the same level as pot is a bit shortsighted. Cigerettes do not cause a drastic change on the thought process. As for budget shortfalls, it does not matter how much money the state brings in it will find a way to waste it all and then some.

Actually pot does not cause violence or crimes, and if marijuana was available as ciggerettes their would be no need to "hunt a fix"

Pot is not a gateway more than alcohol is a gateway. I'm sure more people tried alcohol before marijuana. And your experience with "prisoners" well that's not a very good indication of all pot smokers at all.

You are right, cigarettes do not alter you thought process, they just cause more cancer than alcohol and marijuana combined, and a lot more health problems than marijuana. The change in thought process is one of the great things about marijuana, it really helps with depression, the sativa type that is. Not really a bad thing.

Also, yes, legalization would save us a lot of money, here is a Harvard economist that has done the research and has a different opinion than you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti3QAlKx10c

[makersmark]

Do you think Warren Buffet smokes pot? There's a good chance he doesn't. Name 1 pot smoker that has achieved maintained his financial status and lifestyle.

Do you think the 35 year old college dropout selling popcorn at the movie theater smokes pot. There's a good chance he does.

Is pot a "gateway drug"? Of course it is. I'm not saying if you smoke pot you'll go on to do other drugs, but most people who will never try marijunana will most likely not try heroine or meth or crack or pcp.

They can legalize marijuana but there will be one problem that will exist that exists with everything that is legal - There is a black market for everything and there always will be.

People who do any kind of dope seem to have poor judgement, poor spending habbits, and tend to unreliable and not very dependable.

My office is near Santa Monica and LaBrea, there are grown men walking around the neighborhood dressed like women and sucking c0ck to support their drug habbits. I would guess their drug using career probably started with smoking marijuana.


OR it started because those people are mentally unfit to begin with. I love how marijuana is the cause of whatever state a person is in, yet nothing else could possibly be the reason. You are obviously against marijuana, yet you have no personal experience with it and do not come across as knowledgeable on the matter at all. Black markets are not the reason to legalize it, but yes, profits from marijuana will decrease if it is legalized, and that only helps shrink the black market. The production cost is very minimal, so the selling price of legal marijuana would be far less than it is in the black market today, hence people would much rather buy cheap and legal and convenient marijuana verse expensive, illegal and inconvenient marijuana.

"People who do any kind of dope seem to have poor judgment, poor spending habits, and tend to unreliable and not very dependable"

Wow, so I guess I must have poor judgment, poor spending habits, and I must be unreliable and not dependable because I enjoy marijuana on occasion? I can personally say this is not even close to being true, but hey, keep trying to spread false information because it supports your view right?

[joe man]

[QUOTE=makersmark;338190]Actually pot does not cause violence or crimes, and if marijuana was available as ciggerettes their would be no need to "hunt a fix"

Pot is not a gateway more than alcohol is a gateway. I'm sure more people tried alcohol before marijuana. And your experience with "prisoners" well that's not a very good indication of all pot smokers at all.

On your view of alcohol vs. pot I can agree. As for your view on prisoners I would have to disagree. My background/ lifestyle has put me in a position where I have had long open conversations with addicts both in and out of prison. The majority of the people I have spoken with all agree that pot was the starting point of their addictions. I do agree that booze can also be a gateway to the life of an addict. It is very hard to roll back the legalization of booze and it doesn't work too well as history shows but it may be wise to maintain the stigma placed on drug use. That is my opinion, take it or leave it.

[matt duarte]

OR it started because those people are mentally unfit to begin with. I love how marijuana is the cause of whatever state a person is in, yet nothing else could possibly be the reason. You are obviously against marijuana, yet you have no personal experience with it and do not come across as knowledgeable on the matter at all. Black markets are not the reason to legalize it, but yes, profits from marijuana will decrease if it is legalized, and that only helps shrink the black market. The production cost is very minimal, so the selling price of legal marijuana would be far less than it is in the black market today, hence people would much rather buy cheap and legal and convenient marijuana verse expensive, illegal and inconvenient marijuana.

"People who do any kind of dope seem to have poor judgment, poor spending habits, and tend to unreliable and not very dependable"

Wow, so I guess I must have poor judgment, poor spending habits, and I must be unreliable and not dependable because I enjoy marijuana on occasion? I can personally say this is not even close to being true, but hey, keep trying to spread false information because it supports your view right?


100% agree with you dude! i smoke and i have plenty of friends that smoke...and not one of them or i would touch speed,pcp,any type of needle drugs.. so to say pot is the reason for everyone elses major drug habbit is BS! but one thing i have to disagree on with makersmark is about people going for the cheaper stuff in stores rather then the going to get it from there main man...i would defently not buy cheaper pot...cheaper pot= no taste cheaper pot= headache hahaha if its not kush its not worth it.....

[J. Owen]

dude this is is not the site for that stuff
not apropriate.
and it is legal for medication.
i have no problems with herb
but keep that **** out of our childrens hands
im sure the rest of us feel the same way
i used to smoke but those days are done family first!!
and shame on you if you have children and are useing drugs
if not one love and stay irie!!!!!!
just not on a fishing website lol

[J. Owen]

but ya all drugs being legal fu#k no are you crazy!!!!!
ex drug addict so ya i know what im talking about first hand experience with harder drugs but weed not to bad i guess just as long as you think for yourself and not try to make someone elses mind up by presure some people can manage themselves and some cant if you cant dont if you can go on ahead do what you do.
never inflence another to use drugs just because you thinks its all good

[JediMindTricks]

i hate these threads. they go on and on. its like "does god exist" threads...... on and on and on and on.

if your for herb, get a medical card, and smoke herb.
if your not for it, keep your nose outta our buisness and let us be.

if you dont have a medical card and smoke weed your trippin. even if you dont want to goto the shops, the card protects you! it makes you legal! ive been busted for having over an OZ, went to court, and all charges were dropped.

dont be stupid, get a card. dont be ignorant, keep what you do to yourself. stay low-key. theres a time and place to smoke. just like drinking.

[GeordyBass]

I hate weed.I hate drugs.I think its retarded to do it.

[CASTAWAY]

I hate weed.I hate drugs.I think its retarded to do it.


sounds like you need a little dank bro....:Smile:

[Liteliner]

Sounds like you smoked too much for your first time, a person drinking a "regular amount" of liquor for their fist time would do the same.

It wasnt my first time with weed but then again I was never really a fan of it either. Always made me sleepy and that was it. Smoked it mainly to be manly. :EyePop: Dont judge me. HEHE... I did a bit of drinkin from age 21-26 in minnesota. FUN times...

My 25 birthday. What a night.... 3 Flaming Dr.Peppers later i dont remember much of anything...
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u229/lypeter23/gettindrunk10-21-05007.jpg

[JediMindTricks]

It wasnt my first time with weed but then again I was never really a fan of it either. Always made me sleepy and that was it. Smoked it mainly to be manly. :EyePop:

weed isn't for everyone. drinking isn't for everyone. nothing is for "everyone".
i just hate people who dont get weed, and judge us for it.

some people smoke and get tired. some people get hyper. some people are normal.

it all depends on what your smoking too.
how many people know that there are different effects to weed?

a Sativa will make you alert, non sleepy, with more of a head high.
Indica will knock you out or relax your body very well.
than theres HYBRIDS, which obviously will have both effects depeding on how the cross breeding went.

and you can get ALOT more complex.
Theres different levels of Sativa, Indica, And Hybrid.
Some "strains" are really heavy and some not so much.

Ive been a medical patient since i was 18, and was smoking long befor that. ive worked in the clinics aswell. ive smoked literally hundreds of different kinds of weed. Ive even grown more than youve ever seen.

people should read up on herb. its a wonderful thing........

[Wassup]

I don't smoke anymore, but I have many friends that do.

"Name 1 pot smoker that has achieved maintained his financial status and lifestyle."

Of course I won't 'name names' but unless you are worth 7-8 figures, I have a couple of friends that may make your 'status and lifestyle' seem miniscule in comparison.

"They can legalize marijuana but there will be one problem that will exist that exists with everything that is legal - There is a black market for everything and there always will be."

As opposed to NO black market now? It's ALL a black market now.

The list of harmful side affects provided earlier looks better than the side effects of the drugs I see on t.v. commercials.

I guess I really dont care if they make it legal or not. It wont affect my life in any way and I don't take stands AGAINST other's desires.

I believe the pot user's best argument for legalization is to compare it to booze.

[txcurry]

U.S. statesman Lyndon LaRouche says,

"The legalization of drugs in the name of, for example, so-called harm reduction, is a complete fraud. When the drugs destroy the person, they destroy the mind. They weaken the person's ability to function. This happened with the Chinese, who suffered a great crisis from this. China was sent down, backwards, culturally, by this. And any part of the world that's grabbed by the drug traffic, is sent down culturally. So, the traffic in drugs, narcotics like cocaine, opium and so forth, the synthetics—this traffic is a mass murderer of individuals, is a mass murderer of nations. Any toleration for legalization of drugs is implicitly a crime against humanity."

I agree with LaRouche.
Having used pot for 23 years and having used crank for at least 3 of those and having taken about every drug that was offered 20 years ago, I feel I have a certain expertise on this subject.
I know what pot does. It makes people (like me) lazy and apathetic. It turns overachievers into underachievers. Oh, I know, there are some of you that will disagree, you haven't experienced it in YOUR lives. I say B.S.. Really, who are you trying to kid here? I have been there and done that and you aren't going to B.S. a B. S.er.
I haven't even touched on what other drugs do. It's not the craziness shown in "reefer Madness" and other period films about drugs. No, it's the subtle physical and mental changes that take place and begin to control a persons actions after long term usage..
Do you really want people to have ready access to drugs that would cause such immense sociological problems? Also, research has shown that legalization would cause an immediate increase in the amount of users. Do you really want more people under the influence interacting with us every day? These people will be going to work perhaps or driving cars, or who knows what else.
And as for more treatment centers paid for by taxes on drugs. What kind of life changing disaster in the addicts life is going to stimulate his wanting treatment if you have taken away the threat of arrest and jail. Legalizing drugs is just one more way of stimulating acceptance of addiction as being normal in our society! The addict has no reason to clean up. Since it is now legal, his family is even going to be taken care of because, after all, he's just sick isn't he? His family will have one less reason to make him leave or seek treatment, after all, he isn't doing anything illegal is he?
Just my thoughts.......

[dockboy]

just not on a fishing website

just not on a fishing website lol

Pretty simple really. If you dont like it, dont post. Fishing site this may be, but this is the general discussion board. The more narrow minded one is about life, the less one can learn. Appropriate or not, this is an issue in America today. I brought it up because it interested me at the time, and I wanted to hear what others thoughts, not attacks on credibility or simplistic answers.

Txcurry, I do agree to you to some extent. But my issue lies in the fact this comes down to, IMHO, that we are trying to regulate morals. That is where, IMO, we are wrong. You can't dictate law through moral compass. I understand your points about the sociological issues surrounding drugs, very true in a lot of cases. But, I hate to bring it up again, alcohol is a drug too essentially, with more than obvious sociological issues. But when you stop spending money on enforcement of drug laws, I believe you have more opportunities to improve rehab centers and similiar institutions, in the effort to help users with their issues.

I find Mr. LaRouche presents a double edged sword. He wishes that drug traffic be kept illegal as it is a primary cause of cultural degradation. Does he think the illlegal trafficking going on is somehow different? Mexico and much of South America is in dead lock with a full scale drug war. A lot has gone to hell down there, more than just culture. Widespread killings and corruption based on the cartels. Yet are we going to allow our neighbor destroy itself, simply because we want to preserve the "cultural" integrity of ourselves? Seems rather vain and like nationalistic sentiments, if you ask me. But, the is just MY TWO CENTS.

[Wassup]

LaRouche made that statement in Columbia in regards to cocaine trafficking (note he clarified his statement by pointing out 'synthetics')

It sounds like you went through a lot in your life an I am glad that the worst seems behind you now. What I read into your post is that you smoked weed for a long time and then started doing crank, which I imagine was your downfall. I'm not saying you should smoke weed again, I'm saying it doesn't lead to harder drugs for everyone. As far as a 'gateway drug', isn't it like saying that kissing leads to pregnancy? Chances are a teenager had the one before the other, but was the kissing the cause of little Sally's pregnancy? No, it was intercourse. Should we ban kissing for minors because it leads some to go further?

If my sister was killed by her cronically drunk husband one night, is it reasonable for me to try and outlaw drinking for everyone?

[txcurry]

Oh, crank was especially hard on me but, pot was what always held me back.
As far as alcohol is concerned, look at the problems this legal drug presents;
.Death on the highways, too many are a direct result of alcohol use.
.Spousal and child abuse, far too much is directly attributable to alcohol
.Not to mention the cost to business because of alcohol related absences and mistakes that are directly the result of alcohol
.Take a look at the prisons, far too many crimes are committed under the influence of alcohol.
Then there is the "Big Lie" about prohibition, that prohibition created more problems than it solved. This is simply not true, I did some research on this and the fact is, crime went down during prohibition, way down. This is a statistical fact. We legalized alcohol after Roosevelt got into office simply to create more jobs, it was simply a matter of economics.
This drug is legal, and you want to add more drugs and ,more problems.? Are you nuts?
Look at the cost that cigarettes have placed on society because of cancer and Emphysema. And that drug isn't mind altering! There's no end to the health problems created by all the other drugs. This would be a great burden on our health care system which is already taxed to the limit.

[GeordyBass]

sounds like you need a little dank bro....:Smile:I'd rather shoot myself,,,lol,,,

[GeordyBass]

Ive been a medical patient since i was 18, and was smoking long befor that. ive worked in the clinics aswell. ive smoked literally hundreds of different kinds of weed. Ive even grown more than youve ever seen.

people should read up on herb. its a wonderful thing........:ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:
"medical patient"?
thats retarded,you know you don't need it dude....lol,,,It isn't a "herb","herb" is just a name people call it to seam more acceptable in our society....I believe it's not,,,:Rolls Eyes:

[GeordyBass]

U.S. statesman Lyndon LaRouche says,

"The legalization of drugs in the name of, for example, so-called harm reduction, is a complete fraud. When the drugs destroy the person, they destroy the mind. They weaken the person's ability to function. This happened with the Chinese, who suffered a great crisis from this. China was sent down, backwards, culturally, by this. And any part of the world that's grabbed by the drug traffic, is sent down culturally. So, the traffic in drugs, narcotics like cocaine, opium and so forth, the synthetics—this traffic is a mass murderer of individuals, is a mass murderer of nations. Any toleration for legalization of drugs is implicitly a crime against humanity."

I agree with LaRouche.
Having used pot for 23 years and having used crank for at least 3 of those and having taken about every drug that was offered 20 years ago, I feel I have a certain expertise on this subject.
I know what pot does. It makes people (like me) lazy and apathetic. It turns overachievers into underachievers. Oh, I know, there are some of you that will disagree, you haven't experienced it in YOUR lives. I say B.S.. Really, who are you trying to kid here? I have been there and done that and you aren't going to B.S. a B. S.er.
I haven't even touched on what other drugs do. It's not the craziness shown in "reefer Madness" and other period films about drugs. No, it's the subtle physical and mental changes that take place and begin to control a persons actions after long term usage..
Do you really want people to have ready access to drugs that would cause such immense sociological problems? Also, research has shown that legalization would cause an immediate increase in the amount of users. Do you really want more people under the influence interacting with us every day? These people will be going to work perhaps or driving cars, or who knows what else.
And as for more treatment centers paid for by taxes on drugs. What kind of life changing disaster in the addicts life is going to stimulate his wanting treatment if you have taken away the threat of arrest and jail. Legalizing drugs is just one more way of stimulating acceptance of addiction as being normal in our society! The addict has no reason to clean up. Since it is now legal, his family is even going to be taken care of because, after all, he's just sick isn't he? His family will have one less reason to make him leave or seek treatment, after all, he isn't doing anything illegal is he?
Just my thoughts.......

well said,I'm not experienced at all,haven't done drugs not even once,don't look forward either because I DO NOT NEED IT!

I want California to outlaw weed!

[J. Owen]

Pretty simple really. If you dont like it, dont post. Fishing site this may be, but this is the general discussion board. The more narrow minded one is about life, the less one can learn. Appropriate or not, this is an issue in America today. I brought it up because it interested me at the time, and I wanted to hear what others thoughts, not attacks on credibility or simplistic answers.

Txcurry, I do agree to you to some extent. But my issue lies in the fact this comes down to, IMHO, that we are trying to regulate morals. That is where, IMO, we are wrong. You can't dictate law through moral compass. I understand your points about the sociological issues surrounding drugs, very true in a lot of cases. But, I hate to bring it up again, alcohol is a drug too essentially, with more than obvious sociological issues. But when you stop spending money on enforcement of drug laws, I believe you have more opportunities to improve rehab centers and similiar institutions, in the effort to help users with their issues.

I find Mr. LaRouche presents a double edged sword. He wishes that drug traffic be kept illegal as it is a primary cause of cultural degradation. Does he think the illlegal trafficking going on is somehow different? Mexico and much of South America is in dead lock with a full scale drug war. A lot has gone to hell down there, more than just culture. Widespread killings and corruption based on the cartels. Yet are we going to allow our neighbor destroy itself, simply because we want to preserve the "cultural" integrity of ourselves? Seems rather vain and like nationalistic sentiments, if you ask me. But, the is just MY TWO CENTS.

you know what man your right this is america you have the right to speak your mind sorry for my coment truely not trying to sound like a j.a.

[J. Owen]

:ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:
"medical patient"?
thats retarded,you know you don't need it dude....lol,,,It isn't a "herb","herb" is just a name people call it to seam more acceptable in our society....I believe it's not,,,:Rolls Eyes:

i second that there is no real medical reason to smoke with all the other medications out there there is an alternative man come on if you just want to smoke and not get poped just say so if you do not have cancer and need it to ease the pain them stop making excuses and be real and if you are a cancer pacient i sorry for my comment

[dockboy]

you know what man your right this is america you have the right to speak your mind sorry for my coment truely not trying to sound like a j.a.

no problems man. i have no issues with you or your statements, was just putting it out there you know? its all good with me :Smile:

im surprised how far this thread has progressed thus far without lots of name calling and brawls really :LOL:

if you ask me, there is a medical use for cannabis. a lot of patients today develop either resistance to the standard pain meds they are originally dosed, or they become addicted to very dangerous ones like Vicodin or Oxycon. IMO, I dont see much difference whether a driver is on pot or just slammed back a couple Vicodins. Either way, they shouldn't be driving. When it comes down to side effects and similarly related issues, you'll often find marijuana and many modern pain medications really aren't that far off, the obvious difference being the high derived of course.

[jim532]

How many people with medical marijuana cards actually have it for a true medical nescesity? Probably less than %10. Anyone can give these doctors who have ads in LA Weekly $100 and go through the steps to get one of these cards without any hassle. When you drive by these dispenceries all you see are straight stoners going in and out. I'm glad those cards don't protect you from failing a drug test in the workplace. That would be a disaster.
Anyways I don't judge individuals for smoking weed, I used to smoke it too, I still have friends that smoke but I've grown up and I think it's stupid.

[jimmy951]

ive got my legal medication so im good, aint no other drugs i need lol.

[matt duarte]

How many people with medical marijuana cards actually have it for a true medical nescesity? Probably less than %10. .


i dont think thats true... i mean i dont have a card..yet i plant on getting it though..because after i got in a real bad car accident my back has been totally screwed up, i have back spasms all the time and cant stand for a long time without my back cramping and pressure building up...and all the doctors can do for me is get me vicoden, norcos ect.. and i for one and i bet a lot of others will agree that getting addicted to pills is a lot worse then smoking pot. and norcos or vics will take the pain away but also can put you on ur butt spinning and all dizzy..pot relaxes the muscles and doesnt give me the spins so that makes pot a plus in my book.....

you know the old saying god made dirt, so dirt dont hurt......well god made weed soooo it could be what we all need hahaha

i think its stupid..theres so much hype about people smoking pot when theres people using and selling coke, pcp,speed,herion,crack....can proly go on for ever but i guess you get the point...come on people theres a lot of worse things out there besides pot, but for some reason its the only thing anyone ever brings up..

even our governator is thinkin of making it legal to help out our econ.. growing and selling pot is a multi billion dollar industry that can help out our econ in more ways then people know..

come on people bring a new meaning to the saying "GO GREEN"

[matt duarte]

one more thing...if our governaitor convinces enough people to make it legal, all these people damning pot will proly be happy when all the "damned" people bring this econ back up to where it should be and more..

[cappo]

LMAO check out the ads at the top.

Drug Rehab, end addiction now.

[makersmark]

100% agree with you dude! i smoke and i have plenty of friends that smoke...and not one of them or i would touch speed,pcp,any type of needle drugs.. so to say pot is the reason for everyone elses major drug habbit is BS! but one thing i have to disagree on with makersmark is about people going for the cheaper stuff in stores rather then the going to get it from there main man...i would defently not buy cheaper pot...cheaper pot= no taste cheaper pot= headache hahaha if its not kush its not worth it.....

Trust me I wouldn't want the crap either, I mean you would be able to get the good stuff cheaply and legally, and with more convenience.

[joe man]

i dont think thats true... i mean i dont have a card..yet i plant on getting it though..because after i got in a real bad car accident my back has been totally screwed up, i have back spasms all the time and cant stand for a long time without my back cramping and pressure building up...and all the doctors can do for me is get me vicoden, norcos ect.. and i for one and i bet a lot of others will agree that getting addicted to pills is a lot worse then smoking pot. and norcos or vics will take the pain away but also can put you on ur butt spinning and all dizzy..pot relaxes the muscles and doesnt give me the spins so that makes pot a plus in my book.....

you know the old saying god made dirt, so dirt dont hurt......well god made weed soooo it could be what we all need hahaha

i think its stupid..theres so much hype about people smoking pot when theres people using and selling coke, pcp,speed,herion,crack....can proly go on for ever but i guess you get the point...come on people theres a lot of worse things out there besides pot, but for some reason its the only thing anyone ever brings up..

even our governator is thinkin of making it legal to help out our econ.. growing and selling pot is a multi billion dollar industry that can help out our econ in more ways then people know..

come on people bring a new meaning to the saying "GO GREEN"


Matt sorry to hear about your back. I can relate to the pill popping back therapy as I got hooked over a ten year period. The narcotics for back injuries can be very heavy even when taken according to instructions. I was on Oxy, Morphine, Vicoden, Codine, Celebrex and god knows how many different muscle relaxers. I never exceeded the perscribed amounts but after surgery I had server DTs. You are right that there are some reasonable medical uses for pot and in cases like yours, or mine before sugery, medical marjauna would be a good idea. The problem with this that I see is the distibuters/ doctors sale to people without a real need. I know you said you do not believe that 90% do not have a need but I have seen the abuse first hand via my son and his friends. If they want to leagelize pot for medical reasons and would insure the need prior to giving the treetment then I am with them. I know that here in Bakersfield the medicinal marajauna outlets got shutdown and were charged for illegal dealing. Even when legalized the lure of easy money overrides the law.

[sansou]

The "BS" is getting deep in here.

I would venture off the top of my head that probably 99% of marijuana smokers do NOT have a legitimate (American Medical Association) medical need for cannabis. Specifically, we are talking about cancer patients and sufferers of glaucoma.

I have yet to hear from a respected orthopod (and I have and continue to depose more than I ever care) recommend cannabis to relieve back pain. I would imagine smoking some pot would relieve some generalized pain, but so would alcohol, or any other similar depressant. Marijuana is NOT a scientifically/medically sanctioned/recommended modality to treat back pain.

For argument sake, if in fact marijuana was such the panacea cure for back pain, wouldn't it make sense that doctors would recommend it versus risking opioid addiction (as an example among many modalities) to their patients???

That being said, I could conceivably turn a blind eye to the senior citizen who might toke up because he/she benefits from the mild analgesic effect cannabis brings (and perhaps the fact pills are difficult on the stomache), however, listening to otherwise healthy stoners proffer a "medical need" is plain old BS. It's disingenuous.

If you are healthy and smoke it, fine. No problems with me so long as you are willing to face the potential legal, monetary and employment consequences (as I do when I drink)....just don't sell me on the BS medical excuses unless you have cancer or your eyeballs are fogging up.

(no personal attack on you Matt D....I hear this lame argument all to often)

[makersmark]

The "BS" is getting deep in here.

No problems with me so long as you are willing to face the potential legal, monetary and employment consequences (as I do when I drink)


because that is the equivalent isn't it.

[wellbilldancesays]

Yes keep pot illegal cause it's working out so well. I mean didnt we learn anything from prohibtion? All of the money spent fighting a losing battle while we made thugs rich! Plus absolutely no controls over it so anyone has easy access to it.

People are going to smoke weed no matter what, that's a fact. The goverment is never going to stop it. I could go on and on.

Couple of simple facts:

When I was in high school Pot was way easy to get and getting alcohol was a way bigger pain in the butt. I mean no one ever carded me for weed? Yet alcohol was legal and pot wasn't.

Alcohol kills way more people period than all drugs put together. Not saying make Alcohol illegal but why make others illegal when they are less dangerous.

The reason pot is illegal today and most people are "scared" of it is because of propaganda put out by some business guys to protect their interests.

Prohibtion doesnt work. It only makes the bad guys rich and the "people" lose double, paying ridiculous amounts of money for law enforcement and not getting any revenue from it.

Cheech and Chong are awesome.



I'd legalize EVERYTHING!! (well I might have to think twice about speed) People are going to use drugs regardless if they want too. Just because it legal I doubt everyone is going to run out and start using it. Since keeping it illegal isnt working or doing any good why not legaize it and you'll have less negatives that you have now, BUT a helluva lot more positives that we dont have.

If you can't get what I'm putting down dont worry about it, being brainwahed since an early age is an incredibly hard thing to overcome.

BTW I don't smoke or drink, not that I didnt use too. Just for me personally I accomplish alot more by not drinking or smoking ,but hey thats just my choice. I'm content in choosing for just me and everyone else can make their own choice.

[Scoring Machine]

The people claiming that 90-99 percent of medicinal marijuana users are just stoners are being every bit as disingenuous as the stoners on the other side.

The DEA stats indicate that 22% of Weed Card holders in Cali are AIDS patients.

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/ongoing/calimarijuana.html

[sansou]

Cheech and Chong are awesome.

If you can't get what I'm putting down dont worry about it, being brainwahed since an early age is an incredibly hard thing to overcome.

I'd legalize EVERYTHING!!


No doubt, Cheech & Chong is great entertainment, for those of us that can still separate reality from fantasy. But hey, if "Cheech & Chong" movies are your personal roadmaps to success and happiness in life....go for it!

As far as "legalize EVERYTHING", well, that was tried in several EU countries (heroin/hash/opium). It was a dismal failure. Fact is, there was increased drug usage, increased organized crime and the attendant violence. MJ legalization was tried in Alaska (technically it was personal use only laws 19 years and older). Result: teens had a 2X increased MJ usage rate comapred to the rest of the country. Oh, and law enforcement costs did not diminish.

Besides, wouldn't complete legalization drive up law enforcement, medical, loss of productivity and social services costs? LOL Where's the savings?

Thankfully, I can safely assume the majority of educated Americans are not proponents of complete legalization (oh yes, of course keep meth illegal....as if thats going to matter :Wink:)

Last, let's talk about the "brainwashing": Yes, I admit I was brainwashed with the notion that one must excerise rational independent thought coupled with critical inquiry. It leads me to the conclusion that full legalization in America is an idiotic idea.


MakersMark: Marijuana and alcohol are not equivalent. Society views the two differently, and that alone, within the confines of a politically democratic society, makes all the difference. This also explains the reasoning behind why the Prohibition was a dismal failure. Besides, one can drink alcohol in moderation (notice how all the evils of alcohol are associated with abusing ETOH and not moderation??) and not have any ill effects, short or long term. Could the same be said medically about marijuana usage?

[wellbilldancesays]

Sansou where is your proof that it was a failure in EU countries? Organized crime went up? Etc? Not trying to start an internat battle just curious cause everything I've seen suggests the opposite.

Also Makersmark statement is true but why?

Cause it was demonized to our great, great grand parents by business men to secure profits and passed on down the line to us.
Our founding fathers had no problem with it.

As far as brainwashing goes maybe you are the exception, but most Americans are naive and followers. I mean just look at our current politics. TWO parties have been running this country for how long now?

The more I think about it legalize everything would be the best thing for the world in general. Weed out the weak! Also legalize prostitution and all gambling!

[sansou]

Sansou where is your proof that it was a failure in EU countries? Organized crime went up? Etc? Not trying to start an internat battle just curious cause everything I've seen suggests the opposite.



Here's a quick few:

http://alcoholism.about.com/od/pot/a/bldea050426.htm

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/demand/speakout/09so.htm

http://www.drugwatch.org/Cannabis%20Illegal.htm


I realize these are government based reports, but keep in mind a cold fact remains a fact. Besides, one wouldn't find reports of Europe's drug policy failure on a NORML or pro-pot website! LOL

[Troutman65]

Wow, This thread is still going. I really did not think it would last this long.:LOL:

[wellbilldancesays]

Sansou those are pretty weak sources and considering that your a lawyer I'm sure your quite aware those prove nothing.

We could go back and forth with this but why?

[sansou]

Sansou those are pretty weak sources and considering that your a lawyer I'm sure your quite aware those prove nothing.

We could go back and forth with this but why?

Hey, you asked for my sources that indicate drug policy failures withins EU countries. Surely, you aren't telling me the DEA or DOJ makes up facts on its own site for public consumption. Then again, if you tell me you understand French or Spanish, I'm sure i could find you a website indicating the same (sorry, no sprechen ze deutsch).

You are right, we could go back and forth, and convince neither.

[matt duarte]

The reason pot is illegal today and most people are "scared" of it is because of propaganda put out by some business guys to protect their interests.

Prohibtion doesnt work. It only makes the bad guys rich and the "people" lose double, paying ridiculous amounts of money for law enforcement and not getting any revenue from it.

id have to say what wellbilldancesays makes sence..if the dea wants to win the war on drugs they would have to start with legalizing pot.. pot is a multi billion dollar industry..by making it legal they can save all the money they save from crackin down on growers and put it towards crackin down on the drugs that really kill, like coke,herion,E, 2-CB,ect..and all the money the government would make from opening stores and selling pot would provide more than enough money to support the war on drugs...

sansou said: Besides, wouldn't complete legalization drive up law enforcement, medical, loss of productivity and social services costs? LOL Where's the savings?

i totally disagree with complete legalization..with complete legalization hosptials will be over run with people ODing on crack, speed, herion, ect and there just dirty...and the main problem with our crime..period.. i mean the only person i EVER heard of "thinking" they were overdosing on pot was that cop and his wife that ate the pot brownies and that was just down right funny... if anything pot smokers help the econ by buying munchies all the time hahahaha...i mean them damn crack heads go weeks without eating let alone spending a dollar on anything else but there crack...

oh ya...im not trying to start another argument with this statement but most of you guys on here hating on pot...you guys grew up in the most pot/ drug infested era and you hate on us after you had your fun...kinda like being a indain giver hahahah



anyway.....peace out my brothas im off to the eastern seirras!!!! see you sunday!

[makersmark]

MakersMark: Marijuana and alcohol are not equivalent. Society views the two differently, and that alone, within the confines of a politically democratic society, makes all the difference. This also explains the reasoning behind why the Prohibition was a dismal failure. Besides, one can drink alcohol in moderation (notice how all the evils of alcohol are associated with abusing ETOH and not moderation??) and not have any ill effects, short or long term. Could the same be said medically about marijuana usage?

Society does view them differently, I believe that the majority would agree that alcohol is more dangerous overall. The mere fact that there have been countless deaths associated with alcohol weather from motor accidents or health related problems while there are none related to marijuana is enough to prove this.

Alcohol can be consumed in moderation yes, but not without short or longterm affects. They might not be on the same scale as the effects of abuse but there are still effects of drinking alcohol in moderation just as with marijuana. The difference is the effects of marijuana are less damaging and in some cases even beneficial. There are next to no evils associated with marijuana when used in moderation. Just as with alcohol, the evils are associated with abuse, and even then the so called evils of marijuana abuse are minimal compared to alcohol or even fast food for that manner.

[sansou]

Wow. No motor vehicle fatalities as a result of an operator driving while high?

Really?

[makersmark]

Wow. No motor vehicle fatalities as a result of an operator driving while high?

Really?

Do you know of one? The point is the big difference in the numbers, and that doesn't lie. Can you say that alcohol is safer than marijuana when used in comparable amounts?

Sansou, This is a very sensitive subject and we could go round and round all day as our views differ, and I could point out deception after deception in the articles you posted links to just as you probably could on any I might send you as both sides are pushing for what they think is right and tend to stretch the truth in the process. I believe the bottom line is its not right to arrest someone for using a safer product than that of current legal recreational substances and hurting no one else, its simply none of the governments business if someone wants to smoke or grow pot in their own home, and I don't see how anyone can argue that.

[GeordyBass]

G'Damn it!Stop saying weed is safer!

Thats retarded,not statistically,but try hearing yourself!

[Skyler]

No doubt, Cheech & Chong is great entertainment, for those of us that can still separate reality from fantasy. But hey, if "Cheech & Chong" movies are your personal roadmaps to success and happiness in life....go for it!

As far as "legalize EVERYTHING", well, that was tried in several EU countries (heroin/hash/opium). It was a dismal failure. Fact is, there was increased drug usage, increased organized crime and the attendant violence. MJ legalization was tried in Alaska (technically it was personal use only laws 19 years and older). Result: teens had a 2X increased MJ usage rate comapred to the rest of the country. Oh, and law enforcement costs did not diminish.

Besides, wouldn't complete legalization drive up law enforcement, medical, loss of productivity and social services costs? LOL Where's the savings?

Thankfully, I can safely assume the majority of educated Americans are not proponents of complete legalization (oh yes, of course keep meth illegal....as if thats going to matter :Wink:)

Last, let's talk about the "brainwashing": Yes, I admit I was brainwashed with the notion that one must excerise rational independent thought coupled with critical inquiry. It leads me to the conclusion that full legalization in America is an idiotic idea.


MakersMark: Marijuana and alcohol are not equivalent. Society views the two differently, and that alone, within the confines of a politically democratic society, makes all the difference. This also explains the reasoning behind why the Prohibition was a dismal failure. Besides, one can drink alcohol in moderation (notice how all the evils of alcohol are associated with abusing ETOH and not moderation??) and not have any ill effects, short or long term. Could the same be said medically about marijuana usage?

Apologies for my first REALLY long post. I usually don't really see the need to get involved in political discussions like this, but this subject is funny as hell, and goes far beyond a simple weed. Plus I didn't have ***** to do today, and everybody else has a long rant on this thread, so I wanna jump off the cliff too... After months of study in college and several research papers on the subject, I have found that most of the problems with legalization do not actually lie within the drug itself, but rather in the classism we have grown accustomed/acclimated to in modern America. I know many of you will not want to read it all, but I ask that you at least TRY to see things from the stoner's side of the fence, he he he. In response to Sansou's post, and many other's like it, I will type the following totally biased City-Dad style satirical rant without digression (but with a bit of discretion, he he). Just pretend I'm from Seattle. Forgive the longevity on this one. I'd like to be as straight-forward as possible, but I'm too stoned, lol...


If you measure a man's success by his pocketbook, or a law's success by the initial costs associated with it, then yes. Legalization will fail outright, and we will all still be a bunch of high-strung broke pompous control freaks who need to let off some steam, and who all wish we were as rich as the guy next door. We will stay a petty jealous nation and keep wasting trillions of dollars attacking small countries that piss us off, quoting the golden rule the whole time. We will keep making more laws to punish our own citizens (which will help lawyers like you to stay rich), and keep focusing billions of dollars to house inmates who were never dangerous to begin with (also stuffing the wallets of hearing lawyers on the other end. No offense, sansou ;) ). But if you measure a man's success by his happiness, then you have to see how legalization may not be "right," (what is "right" anyway?) but it is well WITHIN OUR RIGHTS, and may be the only thing preventing our society from finally getting pissed enough and destroying the entire planet. One thing that will never dawn on someone who makes more than $100,000 a year is this: There is far more to our society than productvity alone. We are not robot drones to do YOUR bidding. We are not GI Joe dolls. WE HAVE FEELINGS. We have dreams, and they don't involve hitting the SMP top ten, or conquering small Arab countries. They involve a long peaceful life away from YOU with our families and the friends we have made over our lifetimes. Us folks who realize this may not leave our children an 8 million dollar estate when we pass on (that will be taxed to hell by folks like you anyway), but we will definitely leave them with a lasting impression of how attainable a perfect life truly is, and perhaps a roadmap to a bit of peace and quiet they can find outside the normal rat race. Here's is a good way to look at it; would you rather have a million dollars and a seat on congress, or a large track of wilderness to live off of and nobody to bother you? If you picked the first one, I have a sneaking suspicion that God is pissed at you.

People like that are the reason why our world will not support us in another 200 years. Just because a select few of these have pryed (at gunpoint) a bit of respect from others, and said that something's not kosher, it doesn't mean that they've ever walked a mile in the shoes of the man they are trying to control. And as such, they generally don't know what the hell they are talking about, they are just talking, as usual, and as expected. Just like me. People in your social position raved about how slavery was neccesary about 150 years ago. You may have changed your tune, but you still missed the most important factor in the situation...Empathy (not to be confused with your main weapon, apathy). Even the Greeks knew empathy was a neccesary weapon to influence others (especially those below them), yet the upper classes of modern America have apparently never heard this word, and have no patience for the plights of others. Therefore I, and most people in my position, take the opinions of the upper echelon with a half-a-grain of salt (sometimes a 1/4), even to the point of breaking YOUR laws if neccesary to acheive OUR goals. And sometimes just for fun. It's sad, but you guys brought it on yourselves. After all, what gives YOU the right to tell others what to do when you do whatever you want? We are not children, but you still have to lead by example. If you can take campaigning and turn it into political profiteering, why can't we smoke a little pot?

I guess what it comes down to is that only the upper class folks seem to think the world revolves around their idea of success. It pisses us pot-smoking working joes off honestly (and we are pretty hard to piss off). We live and let live, and accept everybody for who they are. We don't make rules for others to live by. We don't see the constant need for MORE, MORE, MORE. And as such, in the long run, we cause FAR LESS damage to this planet. But in the end, somehow WE always become the bad guys, the evil that threatens to destroy our moral (and I use the term VERY loosely) society. WE go to jail on bogus charges, WE lose our jobs thanks to YOUR rules, even when the state tells us we can smoke legally. WE get stuck doing YOUR dirty work and get paid dismally for it, and we also take all the risks for it. And then we take the fall for it and look to YOU for approval. Our entire lives are based on impressing YOU! WE do your bidding, no matter what, for trivial sums of money and no pat on the back, and why? All you ever give us is grief and threats. EVIL indeed. We are terrible people. The bottom rung of society. But when was the last time a stoner developed an ecological preserve into a mining colony and drilled it for oil? Or payed an official off to let him log 1000 square miles of national forest? Or rigged an election? Or got a multiple rapist off on a technicality? Or bought his way out of an impeachment? You won't see stuff like that from US, as OUR weed is a PEACEFUL DRUG, that causes us to empathize, even with the likes of YOU, and to feel at one with everything and everyone around us (again, including YOU). WE LOVE YOU. We love everybody and everything. We hug trees and save whales. We appreciate the opportunities you give us, and we strive to impress you. It is our life's goal. But in the end it is a one-sided relationship...

If you look at the big picture, you'll realize that we "stoners" (or any other demonized group in society) are the ones that stick together and get things done, and as such we will always have a far closer community, with a far more common enemy. We are working together all around you, AGAINST YOU, and you don't even know it. Medical use was just the start. If you don't get with the program, you will find yourself left behind. You wouldn't notice though anyways, because your priorities are still set on a completely opposite paradigm; to take as much as you can while you still can, FOR YOURSELF. Unfortunately when you are out only for yourself, it's awfully hard to get a bit of help, ya know? You fight us, AND THEN FIGHT EACH OTHER TOO!

In the end, it definitely shows. Hell, look at our economy and ecology right now. We stoners aren't stressing over the recession and losing our homes and families. We have love for each other, and two bedroom apartments in the ghetto. We know that that's all we need. If you lose your job and come to our place with a bowl of weed and a sob story, we'll feed you and give you entertainment, plus a place to sleep for the night (or even the month). Even if you don't have any weed, we'll still smoke ours with you. We'll even buy you beer and take you cosmic bowling. Stoners were empathetic minimalists to begin with, and we know our brethren will take care of us without fail. This is just another day for us, and a great day to be alive in fact, just like yesterday and tommorrow. Every day is great when you're stoned. We are totally laughing at your Lego world right now, and how it's falling apart since everybody decided to demand their yellow blocks back. We'll still take care of anybody who sticks with us, to the bitter end. Whether they got their Legos back or not. And that's what separates us and you.

Of course you will inevitablely fire us continually for failing your unwarranted random drug tests. That is how you punish our "bad" behavior. But we are still gonna be unfailingly loyal and we are still gonna smoke pot. Usually we'll just find the next guy like you and give him our lives, then repeat the process. Sometimes we'll come crawling back. But in the end, it's obvious that none of you guys get it. We care about you, just not your unfair rules pertaining to our personal lives. You don't care about us AT ALL though. I guess that is how you show appreciation to people who have given you their entire live's work. Sad. What we do on the clock is definitely your business, but once we go home, that is OUR time. We know you like to have control over everything, but it's getting ridiculous.

All of YOUR troubles nowadays can be traced to the overcompetitive and overpaid conservative business class who got too greedy. Oh yeah, YOU. Not our problem. We will always find a way to work around what YOU screw up, that is what makes us a "counter-culture." We grew up with your screw-ups. We saw it coming. You called it a consipacy theory, but in the end, you forgot that you share this world with ten times as many working class citizens, who actually needed that dirt, not the $650,000 per lot housing tract that will go over it next month. Now food costs twice as much as a few years ago. Are you at least gonna give us some soylent green? We've moved away from your factories, started our own businesses, and left you sucking it in Mexico. But you still don't get it. Do you guys drug test the Mexican workers? Of course not, you'd lose your entire workforce. So why do us like that?

So yeah, we've definitely lost touch with you. We have actually begun our own society now, and it is WAY funner. The emancipation papers are in the mail. We packed a little sack in there for you too. The sooner you realize it, the sooner you can get back to making money off us. Sure we smoke pot, but greed is the real evil here, not our little sack of weed. Your greed and jealousy causes wars, death, famine, oppression, ILLOGICAL FEAR, and in the end, complete destruction. Our weed on the other hand, causes us to smile, share, help each other, work together, listen to weird music, and love each other (in more ways than one, just ask your mom, he he he), and maybe to eat too many Doritos. Think about that the next time YOU decide what is best for US. I smell a glass house down-range/upwind...

I'm tempted to digress at this point, but I'll hold out for another paragraph or two, as this is way too fun. If you've made it this far, you can handle a few more minutes of ranting. The saddest fact of this whole matter is that to get into the heads of those in power, I'd actually have to go religious. So here goes my soon-to-be failed attempt: As a Christian nation, don't we all know the evils of greed? They tell us that greed is one of the deadliest sins in the Bible. Yet for some reason, the modern American ruling class still seems to condone greed and the rape of the natural world, while somehow demonizing something as trivial as marijuana, which is mentioned NOWHERE in the Bible. Hmm, a little biased are we? Could it be because this greed (aka, the lifeblood of the modern rich white man) magically disappears when you smoke that "evil" devil weed? Losing your motivation to screw people is bad business here in America, huh? Willingly choosing to switch to stainless sure leaves your silver spoon a bit empty. God forbid we have a sudden influx of morality, our society would crumble! Honestly, the only rich people I see helping people are either doing it for show, for profit, or are generally the hollywood type, who as we all know, are not exactly sober. I guess helping others is evil, unless someone is looking...

So you guys just keep fighting each other for a piece of that unreachable pie. We dirty stoners will make our own pie out of wild blueberries and humus, eat it, make another one for you, and ask you for some. Then we will recycle the pan and use the humus can somehow to help starving people (and animals too), which will of course leave us prone to getting used by the likes of you again. Which we are totally cool with, because we forgot all about last time after that last bong load. Just be gentle and use that Vasoline. We're easily bribed. Which kinda makes us wonder why all you guys are still against legalization anyways? I mean come on guys, If you keep us stoned and happy, we'll work for you for life. We stoners have a very strong sense of loyalty, and believe it or not, a very strong work ethic. Mainly because we forgot all about the guy we used to work for after a few bong rips, then we got to know YOU. You are our new alpha male. We love YOU now. Even though you are just like the last guy in reality, we always have hope. Perhaps our downfall, but what an admirable downfall. We would have thought that the prohibition of weed was essentially you cutting off your own noses despite your faces, but then we realized that YOUR KIDS are joining OUR CAUSE, he he he he. We are far cooler and more interesting than you, so they listen to US, not you. They hate YOU now, and everything YOU stand for. After work/school, they are hanging out at our place and getting stoned, and no matter how many of us you arrest, you will just piss them off more. In ten years, it will be YOUR kids you are arresting. Then in 20 years they will be arresting YOU for violating OUR civil liberties. Then in 30 years they'll be dumping you in a retirement home and BBQing at our place. But I guess it's no more than you deserve. All nations have this stage in their development. How you handle it will tell the final tale. I'll get the popcorn...


Either way, what it really comes down to is that we don't need legal weed for the stresses of our own greed and invisible class barriers to consume us, and for productivity to fail outright. Face it, we as a society are lazy as hell, even without weed. And as we all know, a bunch of lazy old fat white men clinging to what little control they have left can be a far more dangerous thing than any drug. Just look at the British Empire. Getting back to reality, we all know that weed will stay illegal as long as the upper echelon stays in control of the logging, paper, tobacco, pharmaceutical, and alcohol industries. But after that, their stoner kids will take over and hire US, since WE listened to them (and hooked them up fat, he he), and they will respect US for telling them what YOU were too busy or afraid to teach them. Logic will prevail, and we will finally re-realise why we created this country...Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The wealth will be slowly re-distributed among those who's heart and effort is in the right place, not those who are born in the right family and most willing to take it by any means. In the mean time, keep demonizing us. We're used to it. We know the truth, and so does God. Shame on us? No..Shame on you for making us what we are. We just needed something to help us forget about how you use and abuse us after all we've done for you. Just like your kids...

-The Stoners



A footnote for Sansou:

When I say "you", I do not mean YOU in particular, Sansou, lol. Just a large population of folks in your financial position/profession. It's all a joke anyways. I'm sure you would smoke a blunt with me, he he? Your firm wouldn't drug test you anyway, right, he he? I can honestly see where you are coming from though. A lawyer's income always suffers in some way when laws are repealed, lol. But then again, think of all the countersuits you could pick up for possession charges. You could clean up big time! ;)

[BIGRED KILLA]

G'Damn it!Stop saying weed is safer!

Thats retarded,not statistically,but try hearing yourself!


It is safer then your 2 stroke engine fumes.



Bigred

[BIGRED KILLA]

Sansou is right.





Bigred

[Sue]

At the end of the day, what a person chooses to do is their choice, whether it's legal or not.
I'm not against pot, but I don't do it....it actually makes me nauseous. However, I do drink, and I've made bad choices with it which I freely admit to. But I made that choice and have pretty much learned my lesson.
It's a matter of taking responsibility, in my opinion.

[olfishergal]

keep smoking your dope as much as you want.........it keeps me in business. The county loves dealing with psychotic pot heads who hear voices , sees things that aren't there and just want their SSI so you can continue to buy more pot and drain the system. Of course, MJ keeps the drugs for psychosis from working effectively. Deal with what I do everyday and you will have a different opinion or not if you are stoned. I tried it a few times. Found it boring. So, I will say my position once again.............leagalize the chit, tax the hell outta it. Smoke and you are building the local economy...........OK leagalize the stuff and I will get a big ol raise in my pay.....but, its your choice to be addicted, not mine......enjoy yourself as you put holes in your brain. BTW ever see a CAT Scan of someone smoking pot.........really quite amazing the indentations and holes it puts in your brain matter..........please keep lighting up.....I will never get laid off from my job. Good luck, ya'll, u need it.....IMHO of course. I would rather fish thank you......OFG

[Skyler]

keep smoking your dope as much as you want.........it keeps me in business. The county loves dealing with psychotic pot heads who hear voices , sees things that aren't there and just want their SSI so you can continue to buy more pot and drain the system. Of course, MJ keeps the drugs for psychosis from working effectively. Deal with what I do everyday and you will have a different opinion or not if you are stoned. I tried it a few times. Found it boring. So, I will say my position once again.............leagalize the chit, tax the hell outta it. Smoke and you are building the local economy...........OK leagalize the stuff and I will get a big ol raise in my pay.....but, its your choice to be addicted, not mine......enjoy yourself as you put holes in your brain. BTW ever see a CAT Scan of someone smoking pot.........really quite amazing the indentations and holes it puts in your brain matter..........please keep lighting up.....I will never get laid off from my job. Good luck, ya'll, u need it.....IMHO of course. I would rather fish thank you......OFG

You ever stop to think how dangerous those drugs you prescribe are though? I'm willing to bet they can screw you up a lot quicker than weed. I know people who totally went off the deep end from taking adivant and other pharmaceuticals that were prescribed to them LEGALLY. One of them is a full on schitzophrenic now, and he used to be pretty damn normal.

[makersmark]

G'Damn it!Stop saying weed is safer!

Thats retarded,not statistically,but try hearing yourself!

retarded? Tell that to the millions of families who have lost loved ones to death as a result of alcohol. Do you hear yourself?

[GeordyBass]

It is safer then your 2 stroke engine fumes.



Bigred
:ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:

You basstard,,,lol,,,:Envious:

[GeordyBass]

retarded? Tell that to the millions of families who have lost loved ones to death as a result of alcohol. Do you hear yourself?
Both are retarded dude....But with more and more people doing that were gonna have a dumb**** filled country.

[makersmark]

Both are retarded dude....But with more and more people doing that were gonna have a dumb**** filled country.

that's your opinion and your free to it, enjoy.

[makersmark]

"The county loves dealing with psychotic pot heads who hear voices , sees things that aren't there and just want their SSI so you can continue to buy more pot and drain the system."

what are the minimum requirements to collect SSI? those probably are not the system drainers you wanted to referrer to huh?

And the pot smokers/citizens/working class love dealing with the psychotic politicians/law makers. I mean they are doing such a good job with all the money we so graciously work for and give them every year, and we love how they lock up so many tax payers for victimless crimes over marijuana and turn tax payers into tax burdens, because that just makes so much sense and is working so well.

I have NEVER in my life meet a single person who is psychotic, hears voices or sees things that are not there because they smoked pot, that's ridiculous and not true in the slightest. Pot makes you happy, hungry, and dazed for a short while and that's about it, and there is no comedown like other drugs, not even a hangover. it is not a hallucinogenic and does not cause what you stated. Of course it would make way too much sense to wonder if just maybe it was some of the other hard drugs that the person has done in their life time that have made them this way, or maybe they had mental problems to begin with. I know a girl who has literally gone crazy because of anti-depressant drugs that were prescribed to her. I mean seriously, are you telling me that in your line of work marijuana and only marijuana does this to people? Ive used it for about 15 years and I'm not hearing voices, I don't see things, and I'm pretty sure I'm not psychotic. Its my opinion that you simply lack knowledge and understanding, its not your fault though, you have been fed nothing but lies for so many years so I can understand why you think what you do. Its not your fault.

[Skyler]

But with more and more people doing that were gonna have a dumb**** filled country.

Where have you been for the last ten years? We are already overstocked on dumb@$$ in this country. We didn't need weed for our laziness to take the place of our brains...

[Skyler]

"The county loves dealing with psychotic pot heads who hear voices , sees things that aren't there and just want their SSI so you can continue to buy more pot and drain the system."

what are the minimum requirements to collect SSI? those probably are not the system drainers you wanted to referrer to huh?

And the pot smokers/citizens/working class love dealing with the psychotic politicians/law makers. I mean they are doing such a good job with all the money we so graciously work for and give them every year, and we love how they lock up so many tax payers for victimless crimes over marijuana and turn tax payers into tax burdens, because that just makes so much sense and is working so well.

I have NEVER in my life meet a single person who is psychotic, hears voices or sees things that are not there because they smoked pot, that's ridiculous and not true in the slightest. Pot makes you happy, hungry, and dazed for a short while and that's about it, and there is no comedown like other drugs, not even a hangover. it is not a hallucinogenic and does not cause what you stated. Of course it would make way too much sense to wonder if just maybe it was some of the other hard drugs that the person has done in their life time that have made them this way, or maybe they had mental problems to begin with. I know a girl who has literally gone crazy because of anti-depressant drugs that were prescribed to her. I mean seriously, are you telling me that in your line of work marijuana and only marijuana does this to people? Ive used it for about 15 years and I'm not hearing voices, I don't see things, and I'm pretty sure I'm not psychotic. Its my opinion that you simply lack knowledge and understanding, its not your fault though, you have been fed nothing but lies for so many years so I can understand why you think what you do. Its not your fault.

I wanted to say the same thing, but I thought I had already said enough, lol. Guess not though. I'm with you though for sure on this one. Those people hearing voices and tearing their skin off ARE NOT the product of weed, but the product of excessive meth use most likely. One thing that is sure to fry your brain, and one thing that you will never admit to being the root of all your problems, even after recovery. Speed causes people to lie and manipulate for no other reason than just to do it. It's convenient to blame weed, since the patients will invariably admit to doing it, especially in this state, but just think about all the drugs they won't admit to doing. Especially hallucinagens and heavy stimulants. Also, don't discount all of the possible psychological problems they had well before they even found marijuana. Socal is full of crazies, and most of them were crazy LONG BEFORE they ever picked up a joint. People who do hard drugs invariably smoke weed when available, mainly because it is a cheap and readily-available drug to replace their drug of choice. Pretty handy when your glass dick goes empty, ya know? So is a bottle of vodka for that matter. It is also used by most tweakers to recover the day (or week, lol) after an all-night (or all-week) speed binge. There are many other factors you can blame for your crazy people being crazy. Weed may be handy, but you and I both know these people had narcotic and mental problems to begin with. And beyond all of that, these people who were crazy to begin with, should NOT be screwing with psycho-active chemicals anyways, including your happy pills. They need to find balnce within themselves, not pay you to force unnatural balance on them through your dangerous pharmaceuticals.

But the bottom line is this: Weed DOES NOT cause this kind of psychosis alone, period. Scientific data so far stands behind this fact, and until you publish a research report on these folks who were totally stable and who consumed ONLY marijuana, your presumtions are totally unfounded. I'm sure deep down inside, even you know that OFG. I mean come on. We ALL know people who have smoked pot for a good 20-30+ years, and a lot of them run corporations! Sure they are giddy and eat a lot of twinky's, but why aren't they total schitzos like you say? They should be convicted rapists by now, right? Not looking for a fight, just a bit of logic here...

P.S. These "voices" you speak of, do they tell the patients, "Go...buy more beef jerky?" Or do they tell them, "'Yo Gabba Gabba' is hella' cool!"? Just wondering, cause my voices keep telling me to watch "The Never Ending Story" again and again...

[olfishergal]

Skyler u r obviously a pot head....please come and work with me for a few days and really see what your non chemical weed does to people......get a life man or keep blowin......enough of this BS.......don't respond to my thread, your opinion is not wanted and I will no longer respond to you.

[olfishergal]

You ever stop to think how dangerous those drugs you prescribe are though? I'm willing to bet they can screw you up a lot quicker than weed. I know people who totally went off the deep end from taking adivant and other pharmaceuticals that were prescribed to them LEGALLY. One of them is a full on schitzophrenic now, and he used to be pretty damn normal.



BTW you really don't know what your talking about......you can't spell.....pot send someone already on the edge, over it. WTH is adivant? never heard of it......and BTW I don't prescribe.


oH YAH, ONE THING i DO KNOW FOR SURE....THOSE WHO HAVE THE MOST TO SAY TO STRESS THEIR POINT ARE THE BIGGEST ABUSERS OF EVERYTHING. PLEASE KEEP USING, I NEED THE RAISE IN PAY THAT COMES FROM PROVIDING COUNSELING AND INPATIENT CARE TO ALL THE DRUG USERS/ABUSERS. I MET A LADY JUST TODAY THAT IS HEAVY INTO METH/HEROIN AMONG OTHER THINGS. WHEN I ASKED HER HOW SHE CAME TO USE IN THE FIRST PLACE, HER RESPONSE WAS....I STARTED SMOKING POT AND IT MADE IT EASY TO TRY SOMETHING ELSE BECAUSE I WAS SO STONED. i WOULD GIVE ANYTHING TO HAVE NEVER TRIED THAT STUFF IN THE FIRST PLACE. ALL SUBSTANCES EFFECT EVERYONE DIFFERENTLY. WHAT IS JUST A RELAXANT TO YOU CAN CAUSE REAL PROBLEMS FOR SOMEONE HAS AN ADDICTIVE PERSONALITY IR A DEFIANT TEENAGER. YES, I USED POT WHEN I WAS YOUNG. I DIDN'T CARE FOR ALL THE SMOKE. IT REALLY DID NOTHING FOR ME AT ALL SO WHY BOTHER TO WASTE MY MONEY.

sorry for the caps, it was an accident. to each his own, to each one of us who experiences something differently, I sincerely hope your experience is not a bad one. Good Night everyone, I have said my peace.

[GeordyBass]

Where have you been for the last ten years? We are already overstocked on dumb@$$ in this country. We didn't need weed for our laziness to take the place of our brains...weed has been in demand since the hippies,,,lol,,,

I hate Illegal drugs.

and dont convince a 15 year old to do it either.


that's your opinion and your free to it, enjoy.
I agree thanks.

But,if you were high i bet you wouldn't agree eh?

[GeordyBass]

BTW you really don't know what your talking about......you can't spell.....pot send someone already on the edge, over it. WTH is adivant? never heard of it......and BTW I don't prescribe.


oH YAH, ONE THING i DO KNOW FOR SURE....THOSE WHO HAVE THE MOST TO SAY TO STRESS THEIR POINT ARE THE BIGGEST ABUSERS OF EVERYTHING. PLEASE KEEP USING, I NEED THE RAISE IN PAY THAT COMES FROM PROVIDING COUNSELING AND INPATIENT CARE TO ALL THE DRUG USERS/ABUSERS. I MET A LADY JUST TODAY THAT IS HEAVY INTO METH/HEROIN AMONG OTHER THINGS. WHEN I ASKED HER HOW SHE CAME TO USE IN THE FIRST PLACE, HER RESPONSE WAS....I STARTED SMOKING POT AND IT MADE IT EASY TO TRY SOMETHING ELSE BECAUSE I WAS SO STONED. i WOULD GIVE ANYTHING TO HAVE NEVER TRIED THAT STUFF IN THE FIRST PLACE. ALL SUBSTANCES EFFECT EVERYONE DIFFERENTLY. WHAT IS JUST A RELAXANT TO YOU CAN CAUSE REAL PROBLEMS FOR SOMEONE HAS AN ADDICTIVE PERSONALITY IR A DEFIANT TEENAGER. YES, I USED POT WHEN I WAS YOUNG. I DIDN'T CARE FOR ALL THE SMOKE. IT REALLY DID NOTHING FOR ME AT ALL SO WHY BOTHER TO WASTE MY MONEY.

sorry for the caps, it was an accident. to each his own, to each one of us who experiences something differently, I sincerely hope your experience is not a bad one. Good Night everyone, I have said my peace.

Well said OFG.

[txcurry]

As stated in a previous thread I smoked weed for 23 years and heavy and how it affects one changes over the years. When I quit I wasn't the "Happy, hungry hippy" that I started out as. I had turned into an apathetic, forgetful zombie. I had little emotions left. I had quit the cranfk about a year before the pot so you can't blame it on that. Pot had turned me into one of the "marching morons" that so many pot heads become!!!
Y'all keep smoking it and when you get older look back and see what you have become, then think of what you could have been.
It doesn't surprise me that CA is leading the way in legalizing pot, after all, they have so much extra cash in the state budget to deal with all the extra problems. Don't they? I mean, it's obvious your state is just chock full of brilliant politicians now isn't it, so they MUST know what they're doing, don't they? Or are most THEM smoking pot?

[Skyler]

Skyler u r obviously a pot head....please come and work with me for a few days and really see what your non chemical weed does to people......get a life man or keep blowin......enough of this BS.......don't respond to my thread, your opinion is not wanted and I will no longer respond to you.

Actually, I don't smoke weed at all anymore. But the fact that I used to gives me a bit better point of reference on the matter.

[PHISHnutS]

I was trying real hard to stay out of this debate but I just can't.

OFG, if Marijuana didn't ever exist do you think there would still be drug addicts, would all those people you help with their addictions everyday not be there if pot was not in the equation? Exactly, they would have just started with something else.....huffing paint, pain killers, nitrous oxide, freon or god forbide good old legal alcohol.

Why are we so hung up and bent over one of the least harmless drugs of all the thousands of options we have to pollute our body with? Let's make a list of all the harmful drugs there are, make a list of the top substances that are responsible for the most harm and deaths and lets see where pot falls on that list.

I was given a prescription recently for vicodin after having surgery, they gave it to me and told me not to operate a vehicle while taking them, now it's completely up to me how I use them or abuse them. I can take three and drive to Vegas and kill someone in the process. Why is that so different? What happened to letting the people decide for themselves what is good and bad for them, we make these choices everyday, life and death choices.

Bottom line is making marijuana illegal is not stopping people from using or abusing it. Why not try the other option and see what happens, I think the anti-drug crowd is afraid it will actually work well and they would have to admit they were wrong, because so far their way is not working.

[Skyler]

BTW you really don't know what your talking about......you can't spell.....pot send someone already on the edge, over it. WTH is adivant? never heard of it......and BTW I don't prescribe.


oH YAH, ONE THING i DO KNOW FOR SURE....THOSE WHO HAVE THE MOST TO SAY TO STRESS THEIR POINT ARE THE BIGGEST ABUSERS OF EVERYTHING. PLEASE KEEP USING, I NEED THE RAISE IN PAY THAT COMES FROM PROVIDING COUNSELING AND INPATIENT CARE TO ALL THE DRUG USERS/ABUSERS. I MET A LADY JUST TODAY THAT IS HEAVY INTO METH/HEROIN AMONG OTHER THINGS. WHEN I ASKED HER HOW SHE CAME TO USE IN THE FIRST PLACE, HER RESPONSE WAS....I STARTED SMOKING POT AND IT MADE IT EASY TO TRY SOMETHING ELSE BECAUSE I WAS SO STONED. i WOULD GIVE ANYTHING TO HAVE NEVER TRIED THAT STUFF IN THE FIRST PLACE. ALL SUBSTANCES EFFECT EVERYONE DIFFERENTLY. WHAT IS JUST A RELAXANT TO YOU CAN CAUSE REAL PROBLEMS FOR SOMEONE HAS AN ADDICTIVE PERSONALITY IR A DEFIANT TEENAGER. YES, I USED POT WHEN I WAS YOUNG. I DIDN'T CARE FOR ALL THE SMOKE. IT REALLY DID NOTHING FOR ME AT ALL SO WHY BOTHER TO WASTE MY MONEY.

sorry for the caps, it was an accident. to each his own, to each one of us who experiences something differently, I sincerely hope your experience is not a bad one. Good Night everyone, I have said my peace.

I thought you said you would not longer respond to me, lol? Hell, you didn't even make it five minutes! Way to stick to your guns there, OFG. As for my spelling, I would like you to just take another look at your post above. My eyes still hurt after reading it. You know YOU CAN look at the monitor when you type. It's quite helpful. Again, i smell a glass house upwind/downrange. So please forgive my mis-spelling of "Ativan," I'm not a psychiatrist. And I'll forgive that punctuation nightmare you typed above.

Anyways, the person you are talking about can blame the weed all she wants, but an idiot will always make idiotic decisions, stoned or not. I would say jumping from a joint to a hit of smack is not a common occurance among most stoners. Only with morons. They deserve to be in their current position. Nobody and nothing to blame but themselves. The weed they smoked along the way is a moot point. But go ahead and keep quoting isolated incidents from a mental health clinic. Don't look at the vast majority of marijuana users, who are all around you, and even work with you in your profession. You couldn't identify them anyway...

[txcurry]

I was trying real hard to stay out of this debate but I just can't.

OFG, if Marijuana didn't ever exist do you think there would still be drug addicts, would all those people you help with their addictions everyday not be there if pot was not in the equation? Exactly, they would have just started with something else.....huffing paint, pain killers, nitrous oxide, freon or god forbide good old legal alcohol.

Why are we so hung up and bent over one of the least harmless drugs of all the thousands of options we have to pollute our body with? Let's make a list of all the harmful drugs there are, make a list of the top substances that are responsible for the most harm and deaths and lets see where pot falls on that list.

I was given a prescription recently for vicodin after having surgery, they gave it to me and told me not to operate a vehicle while taking them, now it's completely up to me how I use them or abuse them. I can take three and drive to Vegas and kill someone in the process. Why is that so different? What happened to letting the people decide for themselves what is good and bad for them, we make these choices everyday, life and death choices.

Bottom line is making marijuana illegal is not stopping people from using or abusing it. Why not try the other option and see what happens, I think the anti-drug crowd is afraid it will actually work well and they would have to admit they were wrong, because so far their way is not working.

"do you think there would still be drug addicts,"
Of course there would be addicts, there just wouldn't be a bunch of pot heads running around.

"Why are we so hung up and bent over one of the least harmless drugs of all the thousands of options we have to pollute our body with?"
Least harmless? O.K. So being a zoned out moronic apathetic lazy pot head with self induced stupidity is all right with you. If this is harmless to you then I just don't know what to say!
Bottom line is, we already have enough problems with legal alcohol and cigarettes ("ScienceDaily (Jan. 27, 2008) — A new study finds that the development of bullous lung disease occurs in marijuana smokers approximately 20 years earlier than tobacco smokers.)". So, let's just go ahead and legalize pot and add to those problems.
The old argument that people will do it anyway just doesn't hold water. When alcohol was illegal, crime related to it was way down, even when factoring in crime related to bootlegging activities because people weren't using it as much because it was ILLEGAL!!!. When it was legalized again by Roosevelt to create new jobs during the "New Deal", crime went way up, mostly domestic violence and drunk driving as well as general alcohol related violence because USE WENT UP AGAIN!!!! This is simple logic that seems to escape many of you proponents of legalization. I mean, our health care system really needs many more emphysatic chronic pot smokers now doesn't it?

"What happened to letting the people decide for themselves what is good and bad for them, we make these choices everyday, life and death choices. "
So let's just legalize EVERYTHING and let people decide entirely for themselves. Let's legalize explosives, and poisons and all manner of mayhem producing devices and substances. This argument just doesn't hold water when you look at it more closely now does it?

[tacklejunkie]

Michael Phelps just beat his own potheaded record..
Must be the lung expansion practice. lol

[PUDD MASTER BAITER]

Im sorry to respone to this thread so late. I was on vacation. I smoked pot from 1967 to 1987, quitting ,because my son came to live with me ,when he was 14 ,and giving his mom problems .about 6 months later ,i found my sons stash. What could i do.kids arent stupid ,and of course his response was ,you use to smoke it. That was what you call, a reality check. Of course .i told him its about respecting my wishes ,and gave him a history lesson of my friends from the barrio ,who didnt stop at pot ,and went on to herion,angel dust,acid, and crack. Many were either dead, or in prison . They didnt use common sense . Growing up as a baby boomer ,drugs were a normal occurance and social thing. My son never gave me a problem after i took the time to show my concern.im proud to say he is a succesful hard working man a great father, and very good fisherman ,and golfer. With a nice family.education, and talking to your kids is the key . You cant stop them from being around drugs. Legal ,or not legal . I think pot should be legalized, but hard drugs must not be. Just my take. God bless and peace out ....mike....

[JediMindTricks]

:ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:
"medical patient"?
thats retarded,you know you don't need it dude....lol,,,It isn't a "herb","herb" is just a name people call it to seam more acceptable in our society....I believe it's not,,,:Rolls Eyes:


i take offense to that man. seriously. **** pisses me off.
i had a serious back injury when i was a kid, i took every pain killer in the book 4 to 8 times a day for years. a young *** kid. I went to a chriropractor 3 times a week for YEARS! Than one day, i had allergic reactions to the pills, my face would swell up, my lips only sometimes, maybe hives, not to mention how lazy some of those drugs make you. ever try to take percacets and goto school?

long story short.......
i became a certified insomniac, my stress level went through the roof, droped out of school, i lost sooooooooo much weight, didn't talk to my friends for over a year straight and at one point, i was so bad, i thought about the worst. sick i know.

i **** you not! when i started smoking herb, weed, pot, ganja, whatever the **** you want to call it.

i slept!
i ate again!
i can literally feel my spine loosin up after i smoke.
i could go out with friends again.
i was back man.

i now have a job where i make $31 a hour and work mad double time hours. I have my own house with a 55inch LG plasma and a brand new Lifted F-150. I could go on. My point is i live a very nice life, im respected by my co-workers and friends and they all know i smoke pot. Heavily. And you wouldn't even know i was high. There just glad to have me back.

so you can take that attitude and shove it man. Just because you dont like weed, doesn't mean it cant benefit someone else no matter what you say. Infact your opinion on it being bad means NOTHING anymore, because the proof is on our side now. Why do you think Arnold is thinking of legalizing it?
WEED SAVED MY LIFE. LITERALLY.

and about using the word herb to be socially exceptable, thats such BS. I could care less what you or anyone else thinks about it, or what word i use.

i love WEED.

[Crawler]

Michael Phelps just beat his own potheaded record..
Must be the lung expansion practice. lol

:LOL: Blaming pot for stupid people is like blaming forks for fat people.

And like Skyler said, you would be blown away at just how many normal everyday people you know, partake.

Cali needs to decriminalize and fix our state deficit. :Beer Toast:

[tacklejunkie]

55inch LG plasmaSee that's where you went wrong man! It's all about LEDs.

I think that pot is an herb, in the traditional sense of herbs, when used as an herb for healing or medicinal purposes.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/herb
 

1. a flowering plant whose stem above ground does not become woody. 2. such a plant when valued for its medicinal properties, flavor, scent, or the like. 3. Often, the herb. Slang.Marijuana meets all three of these categories.


You ever get that knarly stomach ache the morning after going to town at your favorite unhealthy restaurant or too much sweets? Maybe just get a stomach ache in the morning for some unknown reason? How about when you eat so much you feel like your about to explode 'cause mom's tater salad was just to good to put down at the reunion?

Try "herb" here and it's helping you feel better. Quite instantly I might add. In this sense, I consider it an herb. I don't know how it works for everyone else though. Goes good in the evening as well to relax from a long stressful day.. and not unlike the afternoon bar-b-q brewski, can enlighten the moment.

I believe it is what you make of it. If to you it's a hardcore gateway drug for losers, dropouts and addicts, then that's what it's going to be. Nobody is going to tell anybody different in this world. Just try not to judge on the people who do use it as they may have their own reasons with substantial backing. Just because you do not use pot, does not make you any better than someone who does. I'm sure you make up for it somewhere else down the road. :Wink:

[GeordyBass]

i now have a job where i make $31 a hour and work mad double time hours. I have my own house with a 55inch LG plasma and a brand new Lifted F-150. I could go on. My point is i live a very nice life, im respected by my co-workers and friends and they all know i smoke pot. Heavily. And you wouldn't even know i was high. There just glad to have me back.


wow i'm so proud.
I'm 15 so i can't have that life on my own yet....but,

My dad never went to school,lived through a war in his country,and worked his a.$.$ off since he was 6 and never did drugs or anything(harmful)....We live in a nice house,have 3 boats,he gets paid more and he has an 06' Tundra Limited(Which he bought brand new),,, I have an 02'....my dad has too many friends and has no enemies and is respected.

I'm 15 have no need or will for drugs,alcohol,or smoking,never done any of them and won't try it.

i live it "straightedge" and proud,,,

srry bout your back though....maybe,just in a few really messed up situations it may help,,,

but i'm not standing for it.

good luck.

[Wassup]

"I MET A LADY JUST TODAY THAT IS HEAVY INTO METH/HEROIN AMONG OTHER THINGS. WHEN I ASKED HER HOW SHE CAME TO USE IN THE FIRST PLACE, HER RESPONSE WAS....I STARTED SMOKING POT AND IT MADE IT EASY TO TRY SOMETHING ELSE BECAUSE I WAS SO STONED. "

Hmmm, I would have thought alcohol would have been her first drug. Pot usually doesn't cause people to do crazy things like meth. Actually I was under the impression that a female hooked on heroin had a pretty high probablity of being molested as a child,
resulting in opiate dependancy.

"WHAT IS JUST A RELAXANT TO YOU CAN CAUSE REAL PROBLEMS FOR SOMEONE HAS AN ADDICTIVE PERSONALITY IR A DEFIANT TEENAGER. "

Like sex, alcohol, fast food, t.v. etc. So what I'm reading here is that if you have an addictive personality you shouldn't smoke weed. What does that have to do with everyone else?

My friends who smoke would never let a crackhead in their house. It apples and oranges. Like I said before, the pregnant teenager most likely kissed the boy first, but putting attention on kissing would be missing the point.

[ElementX]

I am not afraid to admit I smoke pot legally in CA. Due to a car accident, I have chronic back and neck pain, along with painful joints and muscles. My choices were to go on pain medication (which if you didn't know eats up your organs in exchange for pain relief), do weekly accupuncture, or find an alternative.

I guess for those who want to make their decisions based on no real experience (and I'm not suggesting you to try the stuff to find anything out; just research the other side too), its easy to say its bad because everyone else says its bad. I'll agree that it is bad for your health. Now can you be open minded enough to say that most if not all prescription medication is bad for your health? Just think about it for a second. Say you can't sleep so you take sleeping pills to go to bed. Trade off is you can get addicted to sleeping pills, sleeping pills are hard on your body, but you think they're good because they got you the rest you needed and you woke up feeling better. I already mentioned the pain pills.

Lets use something like robitussin which has dmx in it and you can buy over the counter. Yeah I read an article where some kid overdosed on 8 bottles of robitussin. Does robitussin scare me? Of course not. Apparently some kid dying from it didn't scare anyone from taking it off the shelf.

I have to admit that less than 10 yrs ago, I was the exact opposite. And I'll go further and say that I believed that if you were doing something bad, you were a bad person. But I've learned that there are a lot of things that are in a grey area. Marijuana falls into this grey area. Stuff like crack, heroine, acid definitely do not. I've never tried anything else, but I can say I have done research out of curiousity and have no desire to. I hardly drink any alcohol anymore and the only time I do is usually if I have a cold and the alcohol is in the cough syrup. :LOL:

I guess my main point is I believe that MJ has a medicinal value. I am not saying its any type of miracle drug. And I am in no way saying that there arent a billion people in the world who use it recreationally. I agree with the first guy who said legallizing it would drive down demand' Its totally true and you see it happening in CA. its been medically legal since like '94 I think. Why do you think they're even talking about legalizing it so much right now. Any board certified MD can write you a prescription but most wont because they'll get fired if they're with an HMO. Otherwise, they are as clueless as the next person to any specifics.

MJ got a bad wrap, just like eggs did 10 yrs ago :ROFL: I find it funny that the most recent propaganda is the recommended 1 glass of wine daily is good for your health. Nice way to get people to start drinking. Its healthy, really!

[txcurry]

I just have one question for those who smoke pot regularly. What exactly is wrong in your life that you find a need to change reality by getting high every day?

And don't give me a bunch of bullcrap here, there is a basic need to change reality if you are using regularly, I know it and you know it. I have been there and have discussed this with many users and it's true. There is only one reason to be a chronic user, to escape. Forget all the other crap. your life is messed up if you can't handle reality on a day to day basis and need to get stoned constantly. Yeah, it's just pot, totally harmless right? The fact is, harmless or not, your life is messed up. Oh, you got a nice job and lots of possesions? So what. your life is screwed up somehow, why else would you be using all the time?

[ElementX]

I just have one question for those who smoke pot regularly. What exactly is wrong in your life that you find a need to change reality by getting high every day?

And don't give me a bunch of bullcrap here, there is a basic need to change reality if you are using regularly, I know it and you know it. I have been there and have discussed this with many users and it's true. There is only one reason to be a chronic user, to escape. Forget all the other crap. your life is messed up if you can't handle reality on a day to day basis and need to get stoned constantly. Yeah, it's just pot, totally harmless right? The fact is, harmless or not, your life is messed up. Oh, you got a nice job and lots of possesions? So what. your life is screwed up somehow, why else would you be using all the time?

So how about some no BS on your part and just say you'll never see it any different and are only getting yourself upset over something nobody cares about. So my question is what's so messed up in your life that you have to be so rude with such a backhanded question? I mean, nobody can blame your attitude on drugs right?

Speaking only for myself here, but if MJ allows people to escape from reality, it doesn't do that for me. And when you're set on the fact that everyone is getting high every day, its just like saying everyone in america is a drunk for drinking alcohol. And for those people who take what you wouuld consider "legal" prescription medication daily' they may as well be druggies. That would include you' myself and everyone you know.

I may be wrong, maybe you're referring to using MJ like alcohol vs MJ like medication. Or maybe I'm right and you dont see a difference because you dont care if there's a difference. You have no interest in trying the stuff' and nobody is trying to suggest it either.

[txcurry]

So how about some no BS on your part and just say you'll never see it any different and are only getting yourself upset over something nobody cares about. So my question is what's so messed up in your life that you have to be so rude with such a backhanded question? I mean, nobody can blame your attitude on drugs right?

Speaking only for myself here, but if MJ allows people to escape from reality, it doesn't do that for me. And when you're set on the fact that everyone is getting high every day, its just like saying everyone in america is a drunk for drinking alcohol. And for those people who take what you wouuld consider "legal" prescription medication daily' they may as well be druggies. That would include you' myself and everyone you know.

I may be wrong, maybe you're referring to using MJ like alcohol vs MJ like medication. Or maybe I'm right and you dont see a difference because you dont care if there's a difference. You have no interest in trying the stuff' and nobody is trying to suggest it either.


1.I stated "Those who smoke pot regularly", i.e. chronic users, I am not refering to medical users. A user in drug parlance is not one who needs a drug to deal with a medical problem. There is no implication here that all users are chronic. My question was directed to chronic users. And my question does not apply to medical users, although I do believe there are better drugs out there for many of the conditions people are smoking pot for.
2.In your reference to legal prescriptions and alcohol. I am not on any prescription drugs or alcohol, I can't use them because I AM an addict, recovered but still and addict.
3. FYI.. There are many addicts out there that are addicted to prescription drugs, I have known a few. I am sure there are a few medical users of pot that really don't need it for a medical condition.
4. If pot gives you relief, great, I am happy for you. Too bad you have to use it but, hey, it could be worse. However, that being said, medical use is only a VERY small percentage of the users, and my question wasn't really meant for you, it was meant for the chronic users who are abusers.

[Wassup]

"What exactly is wrong in your life that you find a need to change reality by getting high every day?"

Why does there have to be something wrong? It's a choice made by adults. I don't smoke either, but I don't see a need to defend myself to you if I did. What I do in my personal life has nothing to do with you.


Read your post over again and ask yourself why your so angry. Often when you are directing your displeasure to others, it means something is bothering you in your own life that isn't being addressed.

[ElementX]

Im sorry to respone to this thread so late. I was on vacation. I smoked pot from 1967 to 1987, quitting ,because my son came to live with me ,when he was 14 ,and giving his mom problems .about 6 months later ,i found my sons stash. What could i do.kids arent stupid ,and of course his response was ,you use to smoke it. That was what you call, a reality check. Of course .i told him its about respecting my wishes ,and gave him a history lesson of my friends from the barrio ,who didnt stop at pot ,and went on to herion,angel dust,acid, and crack. Many were either dead, or in prison . They didnt use common sense . Growing up as a baby boomer ,drugs were a normal occurance and social thing. My son never gave me a problem after i took the time to show my concern.im proud to say he is a succesful hard working man a great father, and very good fisherman ,and golfer. With a nice family.education, and talking to your kids is the key . You cant stop them from being around drugs. Legal ,or not legal . I think pot should be legalized, but hard drugs must not be. Just my take. God bless and peace out ....mike....

Pretty awesome Pudd Master, I have much respect for you. Good parents protect their children from danger, great parents teach their children why something is dangerous. Lets not blame MJ for people who were braindead prior to using it. It all comes down to the individual and their own morals. Most of the truly good people I've met in life have been people who have faced great adversity in one form or another and grew from it.

While your choice currently differs from mine, I greatly respect it and understand it.

Whether its drugs, alcohol, firearms, or scissors, a dumbass is going to get themselves killed no matter what.

[txcurry]

Why does there have to be something wrong? It's a choice made by adults. I don't smoke either, but I don't see a need to defend myself to you if I did. What I do in my personal life has nothing to do with you.


Read your post over again and ask yourself why your so angry. Often when you are directing your displeasure to others, it means something is bothering you in your own life that isn't being addressed.

I wasn't angry. Not even displeased. I have been there, i.e. I am a recovered addict. The fact is chronic use of a mind altering substance indicates a need to alter reality. I could care less what others do, but I was trying to wake a few users up because users tend to live in a world of denial. In other words I stirred up the pot and I can see that that mission was acomplished but not with those it was intended for.
If you are a "Normie" as we recovering and recovered addicts like to call those of you who don't use or don't use chronically, you wouldn't understand because you've never been there.

[txcurry]

I just realized ElementX, you answered my question perfectly, and with the only reasonable answer that could have been given. You alter your reality because of pain, lots of it. That is a reasonable reason to alter reality.

[ElementX]

I just realized ElementX, you answered my question perfectly, and with the only reasonable answer that could have been given. You alter your reality because of pain, lots of it. That is a reasonable reason to alter reality.

I appreciate your clarification in the previous post, that was fair. :Smile:

This last one though, man I wish you were right! I can see what you're getting at, but unfortunately it doesn't work that way, at least for me. It might for others, but not me. And if you wanna get technical, I am asleep most of the time while my reality is "altered".

I went through 6 yrs of severe insomnia before I started looking for alternatives. MJ makes me sleepy, and I admit it helps with the pain, but not like most people think. Pain is constantly there, and when I toke it up, it can make you more sensitive to the pain, except in a short while I'm asleep!

I have to admit i enjoy reading these threads because of all the different points of view. Cheers!

[ElementX]

"What exactly is wrong in your life that you find a need to change reality by getting high every day?"

Why does there have to be something wrong? It's a choice made by adults. I don't smoke either, but I don't see a need to defend myself to you if I did. What I do in my personal life has nothing to do with you.


Read your post over again and ask yourself why your so angry. Often when you are directing your displeasure to others, it means something is bothering you in your own life that isn't being addressed.


Seriously, I always want to say to my buddy....

"what exactly is wrong in your life that you find a need to golf"

:ROFL:

[matt duarte]

"What exactly is wrong in your life that you find a need to change reality by getting high every day?".

we could ask the same question to those who drink beer everyday...imo id get a hell of a lot more faded drinking a 10$ 12pack vs 50$ worth of pot...

[tacklejunkie]

The fact is chronic use of a mind altering substance indicates a need to alter reality.Again another theory that could be applied to alcohol, which is legal and more problematic than marijuana. But that isn't the point..
I'd go so far as to say alcohol is much more "mind altering" than pot.
So why do millions buy beer every day? Same reason for pot users.
I guess everyone wants a little altered reality at some point in their life, as did you.
If that's the way it even works for everybody..

[Skyler]

Wow, this thread will never die...

[sktruth]

On a side note... Not all users are addicts. I have been smoking for many years BECAUSE I ENJOY IT. There's nothing wrong with me, or my life, i just enjoy the feeling. I guess that makes me a bad guy. I can quit whenever i want and i have before many times. Just because one may use everyday doesn't mean their an addict. In my opinion not all users need rehab. If that was the case then way too many people on here need rehab for their fishing addiictions.

[matt duarte]

On a side note... Not all users are addicts. I have been smoking for many years BECAUSE I ENJOY IT. There's nothing wrong with me, or my life, i just enjoy the feeling. I guess that makes me a bad guy. I can quit whenever i want and i have before many times. Just because one may use everyday doesn't mean their an addict. In my opinion not all users need rehab. If that was the case then way too many people on here need rehab for their fishing addiictions.

true! addicts use because that have to, otherwise they will go thru withdrawls or what have you...there are no addicts in the world of pot smokers.. i smoke because i like to..unlike cigarettes that i smoke, i smoke those because i have to, those are a addiction a lot of people say cigarettes are just as hard to quit as herion but yet they are legal and the government is making way more than a profit off of them... i say if you dont smoke pot dont worrie about the people that do..if you havent tried it you cant knock it.. its just like judging a book by its cover..

one of my best buddys parents would always yell and get mad at us when we were 15-16 and they would catch us smoking...now he got his medical card and his mom was on a lot of pain pills for a foot surgery that she had..mind you she was totally against pot...anyway we told her to smoke with us and just see..she did and she found it a lot better then poppin vicoden and norcos and oxys..it helped he pain and relaxed her muscles and nurves in her foot...

so bad or good how ever you want to look at it, it has way of making people feel better and possibley saving people that have chronic pain from having to get a liver transplant from taking all the "legal" drugs that doctors give people that end up getting them seriously addicted..

[JediMindTricks]

Wow, this thread will never die...

nope. it sure wont. ever.

i say... "im not addicted, i can quit anytime"
someone says.......... "than do it"
i say....... " i dont want to"
someone says.......... "than your addicted"

you have to be a pot smoker to get that.
and if your not, its so easy to judge.

it goes on and on.
chicken or the egg theory.

[DarkShadow]

This thread will never beat the "Look at my hot girlfriend" thread in the Photos section though.

[jimmy951]

I just have one question for those who smoke pot regularly. What exactly is wrong in your life that you find a need to change reality by getting high every day?

And don't give me a bunch of bullcrap here, there is a basic need to change reality if you are using regularly, I know it and you know it. I have been there and have discussed this with many users and it's true. There is only one reason to be a chronic user, to escape. Forget all the other crap. your life is messed up if you can't handle reality on a day to day basis and need to get stoned constantly. Yeah, it's just pot, totally harmless right? The fact is, harmless or not, your life is messed up. Oh, you got a nice job and lots of possesions? So what. your life is screwed up somehow, why else would you be using all the time?

just because that was your situation doesnt mean other chronic users are alike. im a chronic user and i dont smoke because my life is messed up, when I do have problems i find my self not smoking to get threw the tough times, and when all the work is done and its time to kick back and relaxe. thats when i take a toke and let my mind expand.

[jimmy951]

On a side note... Not all users are addicts. I have been smoking for many years BECAUSE I ENJOY IT. There's nothing wrong with me, or my life, i just enjoy the feeling. I guess that makes me a bad guy. I can quit whenever i want and i have before many times. Just because one may use everyday doesn't mean their an addict. In my opinion not all users need rehab. If that was the case then way too many people on here need rehab for their fishing addiictions.

thats all me aswell buddy, i think the only users that need rehab are the one who use to escape from reality, not ones that use to enjoy.

[ElementX]

nope. it sure wont. ever.

i say... "im not addicted, i can quit anytime"
someone says.......... "than do it"
i say....... " i dont want to"
someone says.......... "than your addicted"

you have to be a pot smoker to get that.
and if your not, its so easy to judge.

it goes on and on.
chicken or the egg theory.


Well put, lets slip coffee in there for fun. :ROFL:
I don't drink coffee myself and never really have, but a starbucks literally on every corner cant be wrong.

JACK: "Coffee's harmless, but why don't you just stop drinking it?"
JILL: "why should I? I like coffee, it makes me feel better and gets me going in the morning. I cant get through the day without coffee."
JACK: "sounds like you're addicted"
JILL: "Its coffee, everyone drinks it, thats not an addiction"
JACK: "Denial isn't just a river in Egypt blah blah... You said you cant get through the day with it right? It gets you going? Sounds mind altering. How much exactly are you spending on coffee a day? 2-3 frappoccino's a day at $3 a pop, every single day? That sugar, cream, and caramel can't be good for your health? Thats like $63 a week, $252/mo...holy crap over $3k a year on coffee and thats not including that gourmet stuff you put in the cappoccino machine at home? Shouldn't that money go to your celery sticks, wheat grass, dental care, or saving the environment?"
JILL: "what the hell are you talking about? Coffee has been proven to help people with their muscles and relieve stress."
JACK: "Yeah, but I'll ignore that and stick with the bad stuff only. Regardless of being able to look at both sides and still decide its bad, I have decided to only look at the bad since my ultimate decision is the same and by definition, you are an addict of mind altering substances. Caffeine is bad for you. I'd sign you up for rehab, but I can't talk to you anymore. I can't be associated with you. Good luck with your addiction..."
JILL: "I can stop anytime I want, but I dont want to"
JACK: "Juan Valdez slut!"

http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=91773&start=0
(those duck hunters crack me up. As a non-coffee drinker, I wonder if they are smoking crack to spend so much money on coffee, but you know how that goes...)

ok that was just for fun. Point is...thats how the logic of rehab works. It is designed to trap you, break you until you lose all independence and rely on someone else to tell you how to live. It takes less time and effort to brainwash you than to help you figure out how to work out your issues. They just take away who you ever were, then make you start over based on their proper way to live. This is not entirely a bad thing, it just gets "abused" because they apply it to everyone across the board regardless of your actually state. The current medical field classifies *any* use of a controlled substance as addiction. Its total BS. *any* use = abuse, which translates into immediate rehab regardless of reality. Its a real money maker.
----

For those who feel proud that they can say they don't know anyone who uses or still uses MJ, all I can say is that they would not want to talk to you about it. I'd rather have people be able to talk to me regardless of what they've done. Thats something thats very hard to understand for those who are better than others. I've been to several pharmacies, and you would be surprised at the type of people that you meet there. I'd say at least half the people look like who you'd sit down to dinner with, and possibly you probably have.

[JediMindTricks]

hahahaaha, i like that.

[ElementX]

The "BS" is getting deep in here.

I would venture off the top of my head that probably 99% of marijuana smokers do NOT have a legitimate (American Medical Association) medical need for cannabis. Specifically, we are talking about cancer patients and sufferers of glaucoma.

I have yet to hear from a respected orthopod (and I have and continue to depose more than I ever care) recommend cannabis to relieve back pain. I would imagine smoking some pot would relieve some generalized pain, but so would alcohol, or any other similar depressant. Marijuana is NOT a scientifically/medically sanctioned/recommended modality to treat back pain.

For argument sake, if in fact marijuana was such the panacea cure for back pain, wouldn't it make sense that doctors would recommend it versus risking opioid addiction (as an example among many modalities) to their patients???

That being said, I could conceivably turn a blind eye to the senior citizen who might toke up because he/she benefits from the mild analgesic effect cannabis brings (and perhaps the fact pills are difficult on the stomache), however, listening to otherwise healthy stoners proffer a "medical need" is plain old BS. It's disingenuous.

If you are healthy and smoke it, fine. No problems with me so long as you are willing to face the potential legal, monetary and employment consequences (as I do when I drink)....just don't sell me on the BS medical excuses unless you have cancer or your eyeballs are fogging up.

(no personal attack on you Matt D....I hear this lame argument all to often)

Only because I can pull them out of my arse at will today, here's your answer. The medical field is a business. Pharmaceutical drugs is a business. Doctors are part of that business. In this case, you can include lumber, cotton, and tobacco on the list of busineses. All of them are multi-billion dollar businesses.

Whats that mean? Think about these:
1) You cannot patent something that was created by mother nature. They tried selling synthetic MJ in pill forms in the past, and at a very high cost. They probably still sell them, but when you consider that a patient can grow and make their own marinol pills, those businesses get nothing from the use of MJ. They don't care which medication is the best for you, it comes down to dollars. If MJ wasn't so easily grown, it would of already been legal and sold today. How do you compete with something that is naturally medicinal with almost no processing? Current pharmaceutical drugs are cocktails of many different scientifically engineered components. It costs billions of dollars and years of research. They want to keep making money. The lumber, tobacco and cotton guys are afraid of the same thing. How do you compete with something that grows like "weeds" and takes less time and effort to process, while still yielding better products?
2)Doctors who do see benefits of MJ are too afraid to write the prescriptions because they have been told they will be fired and blacklisted.
3) Your prescribed medication is based on what you can afford, or what they want to push. Those who care about name brand vs generic have an issue with this. Mainly it saves the HMO money, but the doctors themselves get bonuses based on performance like how much they saved the HMO in prescriptions and contributed to pushing a certain brand to get the HMO a bigger volume discount.
4) They are now starting to claim that there is no additional benefit over currently approved drugs. Hmmm....they might be giving ground...used to be that there was no medicinal benefit.

Check out this map: http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=4516

I agree with you that there are a lot of people that use MJ without a medicinal need and totally can get away with it now if they can get a prescription. Unfortunately, you will never come across that respected orthopod you seek. They exist, they just wont tell you the truth because they have too much to lose...but its understandable.

[City Dad]

Only because I can pull them out of my arse at will today, here's your answer. The medical field is a business. Pharmaceutical drugs is a business. Doctors are part of that business. In this case, you can include lumber, cotton, and tobacco on the list of busineses. All of them are multi-billion dollar businesses.

Whats that mean? Think about these:
1) You cannot patent something that was created by mother nature. They tried selling synthetic MJ in pill forms in the past, and at a very high cost. They probably still sell them, but when you consider that a patient can grow and make their own marinol pills, those businesses get nothing from the use of MJ. They don't care which medication is the best for you, it comes down to dollars. If MJ wasn't so easily grown, it would of already been legal and sold today. How do you compete with something that is naturally medicinal with almost no processing? Current pharmaceutical drugs are cocktails of many different scientifically engineered components. It costs billions of dollars and years of research. They want to keep making money. The lumber, tobacco and cotton guys are afraid of the same thing. How do you compete with something that grows like "weeds" and takes less time and effort to process, while still yielding better products?
2)Doctors who do see benefits of MJ are too afraid to write the prescriptions because they have been told they will be fired and blacklisted.
3) Your prescribed medication is based on what you can afford, or what they want to push. Those who care about name brand vs generic have an issue with this. Mainly it saves the HMO money, but the doctors themselves get bonuses based on performance like how much they saved the HMO in prescriptions and contributed to pushing a certain brand to get the HMO a bigger volume discount.
4) They are now starting to claim that there is no additional benefit over currently approved drugs. Hmmm....they might be giving ground...used to be that there was no medicinal benefit.

Check out this map: http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=4516

I agree with you that there are a lot of people that use MJ without a medicinal need and totally can get away with it now if they can get a prescription. Unfortunately, you will never come across that respected orthopod you seek. They exist, they just wont tell you the truth because they have too much to lose...but its understandable.

Hey, Waterbound, why the screen name change?

[Sue]

Oh, FFS! Is this thread still going on? Get over it already! :Evil:

[ElementX]

Hey, Waterbound, why the screen name change?

You might want to look at the map I posted a link of. Look for the little green icons :Envious: Sorry I don't know Waterbound, but try considering that separate people are familiar with similar ideas.

[txcurry]

just because that was your situation doesnt mean other chronic users are alike. im a chronic user and i dont smoke because my life is messed up, when I do have problems i find my self not smoking to get threw the tough times, and when all the work is done and its time to kick back and relaxe. thats when i take a toke and let my mind expand.
Why do you need to let your "mind expand"? You are altering reality. Why do you find a need to do this? When you have problems you don't smoke it? This must be at work then right? So you smoke at night? Why do you find a need to change your consciousness after work if this is the case?
ElementX
Coffee can be an addiction, I am addicted. If I don't get enough I get a terrible headache. This is a fact. Also I can drink a cup and go to bed, the caffiene has little effect on me any more. Coffee is not mind altering in general. I guess if a non drinker were to drink several cups at once he would get a little sped up but in general it is not considered a mind altering drug.

[City Dad]

You might want to look at the map I posted a link of.
Gee, but your grasp of English grammar sure seems familiar.:Confused:


...try considering that separate people are familiar with similar ideas.
Yeah, they call that "church.":ROFL:(But seriously, I was refering to your "tone" and "attitude." Try Googling those terms, Professor.:Wink:)

And remember: If you can't laugh at yourself, everyone else will.:Envious:

[ElementX]

Gee, but your grasp of English grammar sure seems familiar.:Confused:


Yeah, they call that "church.":ROFL:(But seriously, I was refering to your "tone" and "attitude." Try Googling those terms, Professor.:Wink:)

And remember: If you can't laugh at yourself, everyone else will.:Envious:

Oh believe me, I can laugh at myself just as much as I can laugh at your "typical" and similar attitude. Grammar is a reach isnt it? Its fine if you dont care about any of this and really none of us do, but grammar? :ROFL:

[City Dad]

Oh believe me, I can laugh at myself just as much as I can laugh at your "typical" and similar attitude. Grammar is a reach isnt it? Its fine if you dont care about any of this and really none of us do, but grammar? :ROFL:
i think you are missing the joke. do you fish?

[makersmark]

Why do you need to let your "mind expand"? You are altering reality. Why do you find a need to do this? When you have problems you don't smoke it? This must be at work then right? So you smoke at night? Why do you find a need to change your consciousness after work if this is the case?
ElementX
Coffee can be an addiction, I am addicted. If I don't get enough I get a terrible headache. This is a fact. Also I can drink a cup and go to bed, the caffeine has little effect on me any more. Coffee is not mind altering in general. I guess if a non drinker were to drink several cups at once he would get a little sped up but in general it is not considered a mind altering drug.

txcurry, I can see how it might be hard to see it from both perspectives, the addict and the recreational user. As from the addict perspective, I can actually see why you feel the way you do, if I had an addictive personality then I would probably see it the same as you. A person with an addictive personality can have problems with a lot of substances as they can easily become dependent and hooked. On the other hand, if from a recreational perspective without the problem of addictive personality, I can see exactly where they are coming from. You see they can actually use it in moderation without any ill affects. They do not become dependent on it, and only use it when they would like to. It does not take control of them like it might with a person who has an addictive personality.

If an adult would like to alter his/her reality for the enjoyment of it, why is that a bad thing? Especially when they are able to handle it and keep it within moderation. I don't see the problem. When people watch movies they are altering reality for the enjoyment, there watching something that isn't real, its a made up reality. Would you say people that like to watch a lot of movies are just trying to escape reality too? If the person can handle it, and they are responsible about it and it affects no one else, then there shouldn't be a problem with it.

I think you have good points, but they should be directed towards people with an addictive personality, not all users, as it's not a one size fits all issue.

[ElementX]

i think you are missing the joke. do you fish?

I try to look like I'm fishing, but most of you would not call it that and ask what the rubber chicken is for :LOL: Lets go fishing buddy!

[City Dad]

I try to look like I'm fishing, but most of you would not call it that and ask what the rubber chicken is for :LOL: Lets go fishing buddy!

oh, you must be new here or else you would know about my profound agorophobia... I never leave my ice cave... but I will be happy to send you some hand-tied jigs or flies should you wish!

[ElementX]

oh, you must be new here or else you would know about my profound agorophobia... I never leave my ice cave... but I will be happy to send you some hand-tied jigs or flies should you wish!

Come on, be a true fisherman and get out there and teach us to tie jigs and flies for a lifetime! Its better than MJ....really!

[txcurry]

txcurry, I can see how it might be hard to see it from both perspectives, the addict and the recreational user. As from the addict perspective, I can actually see why you feel the way you do, if I had an addictive personality then I would probably see it the same as you. A person with an addictive personality can have problems with a lot of substances as they can easily become dependent and hooked. On the other hand, if from a recreational perspective without the problem of addictive personality, I can see exactly where they are coming from. You see they can actually use it in moderation without any ill affects. They do not become dependent on it, and only use it when they would like to. It does not take control of them like it might with a person who has an addictive personality.

If an adult would like to alter his/her reality for the enjoyment of it, why is that a bad thing? Especially when they are able to handle it and keep it within moderation. I don't see the problem. When people watch movies they are altering reality for the enjoyment, there watching something that isn't real, its a made up reality. Would you say people that like to watch a lot of movies are just trying to escape reality too? If the person can handle it, and they are responsible about it and it affects no one else, then there shouldn't be a problem with it.

I think you have good points, but they should be directed towards people with an addictive personality, not all users, as it's not a one size fits all issue.

I am aware it is not a one size fits all issue, my original question(s) were directed toward the "chronic user". When one responds to my post I assume they are a chronic user, because that's where the qestion(s) were directed. I am well aware of the recreational users, we call them "normies".
Also let me make this clear, I don't really care what one does on their own time, however I do believe that anything that alters ones consciousness cannot be considered harmless, if only because of the physchological changes that can come about when one abuses a substance over a long period of time. Read that CAN come about ...not that it will since pot affects certain people in different ways.
And almost anyone who has smoked pot on a daily basis for over twenty years will tell you, there IS such a thing as physchological addiction. How else could you explain the twelve step programs for sex and gambling addictions. This possibility of Physchological addiction alone takes pot a step above "harmless". Add this to the lung problems that can occur as a result of chronic use and the idea that it is "harmless" becomes less plausible.
The question remains though, do you want to legalize it?

[Anglerism]

popcorn anyone?!

[matt duarte]

popcorn anyone?!

defently! i got the munchies hahahaha roll roll roll a joint, twist it at the ends, light it up, take a puff and pass it to a friend lol

[jimmy951]

Why do you need to let your "mind expand"? You are altering reality. Why do you find a need to do this? When you have problems you don't smoke it? This must be at work then right? So you smoke at night? Why do you find a need to change your consciousness after work if this is the case?

well i never said i need to, i just said i like to. yes i dont smoke when i have problems because people like you try to make it out to it being a reality altering situation. no i wouldnt smoke at work or till i have done everything needed to, so i can relaxe for the rest of the night. i dont find the need to i find the pleasure to and the right to.

[jimmy951]

I am aware it is not a one size fits all issue, my original question(s) were directed toward the "chronic user". When one responds to my post I assume they are a chronic user, because that's where the qestion(s) were directed. I am well aware of the recreational users, we call them "normies".
Also let me make this clear, I don't really care what one does on their own time, however I do believe that anything that alters ones consciousness cannot be considered harmless, if only because of the physchological changes that can come about when one abuses a substance over a long period of time. Read that CAN come about ...not that it will since pot affects certain people in different ways.
And almost anyone who has smoked pot on a daily basis for over twenty years will tell you, there IS such a thing as physchological addiction. How else could you explain the twelve step programs for sex and gambling addictions. This possibility of Physchological addiction alone takes pot a step above "harmless". Add this to the lung problems that can occur as a result of chronic use and the idea that it is "harmless" becomes less plausible.
The question remains though, do you want to legalize it?

a "chronic" user and a "normie" is the same in my opinion.

[matt duarte]

weed does not alter reality...estacy, shrooms,DMT,2-cb, herion,pcp....these are mind altering drugs weed just relaxes you doesnt make you see things, doesnt make you do things you normaly wouldnt do...

[Skyler]

weed just relaxes you doesnt make you see things, doesnt make you do things you normaly wouldnt do...

Except for eating an entire bag of Ruffles while watching Comedy Central for 6 hours straight, lol. I don't generally do that sober...

[makersmark]

I am aware it is not a one size fits all issue, my original question(s) were directed toward the "chronic user". When one responds to my post I assume they are a chronic user, because that's where the qestion(s) were directed. I am well aware of the recreational users, we call them "normies".
Also let me make this clear, I don't really care what one does on their own time, however I do believe that anything that alters ones consciousness cannot be considered harmless, if only because of the physchological changes that can come about when one abuses a substance over a long period of time. Read that CAN come about ...not that it will since pot affects certain people in different ways.
And almost anyone who has smoked pot on a daily basis for over twenty years will tell you, there IS such a thing as physchological addiction. How else could you explain the twelve step programs for sex and gambling addictions. This possibility of Physchological addiction alone takes pot a step above "harmless". Add this to the lung problems that can occur as a result of chronic use and the idea that it is "harmless" becomes less plausible.
The question remains though, do you want to legalize it?

txcurry,

so let me get this straight, you don't think marijuana should be legal because....

1) after everyday use for 20 years there is a possibility of psychological addiction
2) because people with addictive personalities cant control themselves
3) because you don't like people altering their reality responsibly and temporarily for enjoyment (not sure what reality is altered, maybe time seems to go by slower?)
4) because it is a step above harmless and has the potential to cause lung damage over a long period of time IF abused.

you can swap marijuana with any of the legal substance in all of those, and they would pan out even worse, so I don't see that as a good argument as to why marijuana should be illegal. And honestly, how can these "possibilities" be good reason to keep it illegal when prohibition is currently causing so many problems? drug cartels are getting rich and selling to our kids, states are broke and loosing billions in revenue on something that is going on whether illegal or not, and the cartels continue to kill thousands of people every year over their illegal trade, and all the money wasted trying to stop something that has done nothing but grow in popularity, and all the innocent people that are otherwise law abiding tax paying citizens like you and me that are sitting in metal cages right now just because they like to smoke pot. and there is plenty more damage being caused, its an obvious failure and something that needs to change. There simply isn't better/more reason to keep it illegal than there are to make it legal again.

I just don't feel that because it can possibly cause a psychological addiction if used every day for 20 years is a good reason to keep it illegal, especially when anything used everyday for 20 years probably isn't going to be good for you. Most of your argument is geared toward "chronic users" or long term use as you point out, but it is not right to punish the majority of people who can use it responsibly because of the people who cant. Just because someone cant control them selves to the point of recklessness doesn't mean that it should remain illegal, if that was the case than credit cards wouldn't be legal, hell chocolate wouldn't be legal, ect... you get the point. There are always going to be people that abuse things.

[makersmark]

Many people assume that marijuana was made illegal through some kind of process involving scientific, medical, and government hearings; that it was to protect the citizens from what was determined to be a dangerous drug.
The actual story shows a much different picture. Those who voted on the legal fate of this plant never had the facts, but were dependent on information supplied by those who had a specific agenda to deceive lawmakers. You'll see below that the very first federal vote to prohibit marijuana was based entirely on a documented lie on the floor of the Senate.
You'll also see that the history of marijuana's criminalization is filled with:
• Racism
• Fear
• Protection of Corporate Profits
• Yellow Journalism
• Ignorant, Incompetent, and/or Corrupt Legislators
• Personal Career Advancement and Greed

These are the actual reasons marijuana is illegal.

Background
For most of human history, marijuana has been completely legal. It's not a recently discovered plant, nor is it a long-standing law. Marijuana has been illegal for less than 1% of the time that it's been in use. Its known uses go back further than 7,000 B.C. and it was legal as recently as when Ronald Reagan was a boy.
The marijuana (hemp) plant, of course, has an incredible number of uses. The earliest known woven fabric was apparently of hemp, and over the centuries the plant was used for food, incense, cloth, rope, and much more. This adds to some of the confusion over its introduction in the United States, as the plant was well known from the early 1600's, but did not reach public awareness as a recreational drug until the early 1900's.
America's first marijuana law was enacted at Jamestown Colony, Virginia in 1619. It was a law "ordering" all farmers to grow Indian hempseed. There were several other "must grow" laws over the next 200 years (you could be jailed for not growing hemp during times of shortage in Virginia between 1763 and 1767), and during most of that time, hemp was legal tender (you could even pay your taxes with hemp -- try that today!) Hemp was such a critical crop for a number of purposes (including essential war requirements - rope, etc.) that the government went out of its way to encourage growth.
The United States Census of 1850 counted 8,327 hemp "plantations" (minimum 2,000-acre farm) growing cannabis hemp for cloth, canvas and even the cordage used for baling cotton.

The Mexican Connection
In the early 1900s, the western states developed significant tensions regarding the influx of Mexican-Americans. The revolution in Mexico in 1910 spilled over the border, with General Pershing's army clashing with bandit Pancho Villa. Later in that decade, bad feelings developed between the small farmer and the large farms that used cheaper Mexican labor. Then, the depression came and increased tensions, as jobs and welfare resources became scarce.
One of the "differences" seized upon during this time was the fact that many Mexicans smoked marijuana and had brought the plant with them, and it was through this that California apparently passed the first state marijuana law, outlawing "preparations of hemp, or loco weed."
However, one of the first state laws outlawing marijuana may have been influenced, not just by Mexicans using the drug, but, oddly enough, because of Mormons using it. Mormons who traveled to Mexico in 1910 came back to Salt Lake City with marijuana. The church's reaction to this may have contributed to the state's marijuana law. (Note: the source for this speculation is from articles by Charles Whitebread, Professor of Law at USC Law School in a paper for the Virginia Law Review, and a speech to the California Judges Association (sourced below). Mormon blogger Ardis Parshall disputes this.)
Other states quickly followed suit with marijuana prohibition laws, including Wyoming (1915), Texas (1919), Iowa (1923), Nevada (1923), Oregon (1923), Washington (1923), Arkansas (1923), and Nebraska (1927). These laws tended to be specifically targeted against the Mexican-American population.
When Montana outlawed marijuana in 1927, the Butte Montana Standard reported a legislator's comment: "When some beet field peon takes a few traces of this stuff... he thinks he has just been elected president of Mexico, so he starts out to execute all his political enemies." In Texas, a senator said on the floor of the Senate: "All Mexicans are crazy, and this stuff [marijuana] is what makes them crazy."
Jazz and Assassins
In the eastern states, the "problem" was attributed to a combination of Latin Americans and black jazz musicians. Marijuana and jazz traveled from New Orleans to Chicago, and then to Harlem, where marijuana became an indispensable part of the music scene, even entering the language of the black hits of the time (Louis Armstrong's "Muggles", Cab Calloway's "That Funny Reefer Man", Fats Waller's "Viper's Drag").
Again, racism was part of the charge against marijuana, as newspapers in 1934 editorialized: "Marihuana influences Negroes to look at white people in the eye, step on white men's shadows and look at a white woman twice."
Two other fear-tactic rumors started to spread: one, that Mexicans, Blacks and other foreigners were snaring white children with marijuana; and two, the story of the "assassins." Early stories of Marco Polo had told of "hasheesh-eaters" or hashashin, from which derived the term "assassin." In the original stories, these professional killers were given large doses of hashish and brought to the ruler's garden (to give them a glimpse of the paradise that awaited them upon successful completion of their mission). Then, after the effects of the drug disappeared, the assassin would fulfill his ruler's wishes with cool, calculating loyalty.
By the 1930s, the story had changed. Dr. A. E. Fossier wrote in the 1931 New Orleans Medical and Surgical Journal: "Under the influence of hashish those fanatics would madly rush at their enemies, and ruthlessly massacre every one within their grasp." Within a very short time, marijuana started being linked to violent behavior.
Alcohol Prohibition and Federal Approaches to Drug Prohibition
During this time, the United States was also dealing with alcohol prohibition, which lasted from 1919 to 1933. Alcohol prohibition was extremely visible and debated at all levels, while drug laws were passed without the general public's knowledge. National alcohol prohibition happened through the mechanism of an amendment to the constitution.
Earlier (1914), the Harrison Act was passed, which provided federal tax penalties for opiates and cocaine.
The federal approach is important. It was considered at the time that the federal government did not have the constitutional power to outlaw alcohol or drugs. It is because of this that alcohol prohibition required a constitutional amendment.
At that time in our country's history, the judiciary regularly placed the tenth amendment in the path of congressional regulation of "local" affairs, and direct regulation of medical practice was considered beyond congressional power under the commerce clause (since then, both provisions have been weakened so far as to have almost no meaning).
Since drugs could not be outlawed at the federal level, the decision was made to use federal taxes as a way around the restriction. In the Harrison Act, legal uses of opiates and cocaine were taxed (supposedly as a revenue need by the federal government, which is the only way it would hold up in the courts), and those who didn't follow the law found themselves in trouble with the treasury department.
In 1930, a new division in the Treasury Department was established -- the Federal Bureau of Narcotics -- and Harry J. Anslinger was named director. This, if anything, marked the beginning of the all-out war against marijuana.
Harry J. Anslinger
Anslinger was an extremely ambitious man, and he recognized the Bureau of Narcotics as an amazing career opportunity -- a new government agency with the opportunity to define both the problem and the solution. He immediately realized that opiates and cocaine wouldn't be enough to help build his agency, so he latched on to marijuana and started to work on making it illegal at the federal level.
Anslinger immediately drew upon the themes of racism and violence to draw national attention to the problem he wanted to create. He also promoted and frequently read from "Gore Files" -- wild reefer-madness-style exploitation tales of ax murderers on marijuana and sex and... Negroes. Here are some quotes that have been widely attributed to Anslinger and his Gore Files:
"There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos, and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz, and swing, result from marijuana use. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers, and any others."

"...the primary reason to outlaw marijuana is its effect on the degenerate races."

"Marijuana is an addictive drug which produces in its users insanity, criminality, and death."

"Reefer makes darkies think they're as good as white men."

"Marihuana leads to pacifism and communist brainwashing"

"You smoke a joint and you're likely to kill your brother."

"Marijuana is the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind."
And he loved to pull out his own version of the "assassin" definition:
"In the year 1090, there was founded in Persia the religious and military order of the Assassins, whose history is one of cruelty, barbarity, and murder, and for good reason: the members were confirmed users of hashish, or marihuana, and it is from the Arabs' 'hashashin' that we have the English word 'assassin.'"
Yellow Journalism
Harry Anslinger got some additional help from William Randolf Hearst, owner of a huge chain of newspapers. Hearst had lots of reasons to help. First, he hated Mexicans. Second, he had invested heavily in the timber industry to support his newspaper chain and didn't want to see the development of hemp paper in competition. Third, he had lost 800,000 acres of timberland to Pancho Villa, so he hated Mexicans. Fourth, telling lurid lies about Mexicans (and the devil marijuana weed causing violence) sold newspapers, making him rich.
Some samples from the San Francisco Examiner:
"Marihuana makes fiends of boys in thirty days -- Hashish goads users to bloodlust."

"By the tons it is coming into this country -- the deadly, dreadful poison that racks and tears not only the body, but the very heart and soul of every human being who once becomes a slave to it in any of its cruel and devastating forms.... Marihuana is a short cut to the insane asylum. Smoke marihuana cigarettes for a month and what was once your brain will be nothing but a storehouse of horrid specters. Hasheesh makes a murderer who kills for the love of killing out of the mildest mannered man who ever laughed at the idea that any habit could ever get him...."
And other nationwide columns...
"Users of marijuana become STIMULATED as they inhale the drug and are LIKELY TO DO ANYTHING. Most crimes of violence in this section, especially in country districts are laid to users of that drug."

[makersmark]

"Was it marijuana, the new Mexican drug, that nerved the murderous arm of Clara Phillips when she hammered out her victim's life in Los Angeles?... THREE-FOURTHS OF THE CRIMES of violence in this country today are committed by DOPE SLAVES -- that is a matter of cold record."
Hearst and Anslinger were then supported by Dupont chemical company and various pharmaceutical companies in the effort to outlaw cannabis. Dupont had patented nylon, and wanted hemp removed as competition. The pharmaceutical companies could neither identify nor standardize cannabis dosages, and besides, with cannabis, folks could grow their own medicine and not have to purchase it from large companies.
This all set the stage for...
The Marijuana Tax Act of 1937.
After two years of secret planning, Anslinger brought his plan to Congress -- complete with a scrapbook full of sensational Hearst editorials, stories of ax murderers who had supposedly smoked marijuana, and racial slurs.
It was a remarkably short set of hearings.
The one fly in Anslinger's ointment was the appearance by Dr. William C. Woodward, Legislative Council of the American Medical Association.
Woodward started by slamming Harry Anslinger and the Bureau of Narcotics for distorting earlier AMA statements that had nothing to do with marijuana and making them appear to be AMA endorsement for Anslinger's view.
He also reproached the legislature and the Bureau for using the term marijuana in the legislation and not publicizing it as a bill about cannabis or hemp. At this point, marijuana (or marihuana) was a sensationalist word used to refer to Mexicans smoking a drug and had not been connected in most people's minds to the existing cannabis/hemp plant. Thus, many who had legitimate reasons to oppose the bill weren't even aware of it.
Woodward went on to state that the AMA was opposed to the legislation and further questioned the approach of the hearings, coming close to outright accusation of misconduct by Anslinger and the committee:
"That there is a certain amount of narcotic addiction of an objectionable character no one will deny. The newspapers have called attention to it so prominently that there must be some grounds for [their] statements [even Woodward was partially taken in by Hearst's propaganda]. It has surprised me, however, that the facts on which these statements have been based have not been brought before this committee by competent primary evidence. We are referred to newspaper publications concerning the prevalence of marihuana addiction. We are told that the use of marihuana causes crime.

But yet no one has been produced from the Bureau of Prisons to show the number of prisoners who have been found addicted to the marihuana habit. An informed inquiry shows that the Bureau of Prisons has no evidence on that point.

You have been told that school children are great users of marihuana cigarettes. No one has been summoned from the Children's Bureau to show the nature and extent of the habit, among children.

Inquiry of the Children's Bureau shows that they have had no occasion to investigate it and know nothing particularly of it.

Inquiry of the Office of Education--- and they certainly should know something of the prevalence of the habit among the school children of the country, if there is a prevalent habit--- indicates that they have had no occasion to investigate and know nothing of it.

Moreover, there is in the Treasury Department itself, the Public Health Service, with its Division of Mental Hygiene. The Division of Mental Hygiene was, in the first place, the Division of Narcotics. It was converted into the Division of Mental Hygiene, I think, about 1930. That particular Bureau has control at the present time of the narcotics farms that were created about 1929 or 1930 and came into operation a few years later. No one has been summoned from that Bureau to give evidence on that point.

Informal inquiry by me indicates that they have had no record of any marihuana of Cannabis addicts who have ever been committed to those farms.

The bureau of Public Health Service has also a division of pharmacology. If you desire evidence as to the pharmacology of Cannabis, that obviously is the place where you can get direct and primary evidence, rather than the indirect hearsay evidence."
Committee members then proceeded to attack Dr. Woodward, questioning his motives in opposing the legislation. Even the Chairman joined in:
The Chairman: If you want to advise us on legislation, you ought to come here with some constructive proposals, rather than criticism, rather than trying to throw obstacles in the way of something that the Federal Government is trying to do. It has not only an unselfish motive in this, but they have a serious responsibility.

Dr. Woodward: We cannot understand yet, Mr. Chairman, why this bill should have been prepared in secret for 2 years without any intimation, even, to the profession, that it was being prepared.
After some further bantering...
The Chairman: I would like to read a quotation from a recent editorial in the Washington Times:
The marihuana cigarette is one of the most insidious of all forms of dope, largely because of the failure of the public to understand its fatal qualities.

The Nation is almost defenseless against it, having no Federal laws to cope with it and virtually no organized campaign for combating it.

The result is tragic.

School children are the prey of peddlers who infest school neighborhoods.

High school boys and girls buy the destructive weed without knowledge of its capacity of harm, and conscienceless dealers sell it with impunity.

This is a national problem, and it must have national attention.

The fatal marihuana cigarette must be recognized as a deadly drug, and American children must be protected against it.
That is a pretty severe indictment. They say it is a national question and that it requires effective legislation. Of course, in a general way, you have responded to all of these statements; but that indicates very clearly that it is an evil of such magnitude that it is recognized by the press of the country as such.
And that was basically it. Yellow journalism won over medical science.
The committee passed the legislation on. And on the floor of the house, the entire discussion was:
Member from upstate New York: "Mr. Speaker, what is this bill about?"

Speaker Rayburn: "I don't know. It has something to do with a thing called marihuana. I think it's a narcotic of some kind."

"Mr. Speaker, does the American Medical Association support this bill?"

Member on the committee jumps up and says: "Their Doctor Wentworth[sic] came down here. They support this bill 100 percent."
And on the basis of that lie, on August 2, 1937, marijuana became illegal at the federal level.
The entire coverage in the New York Times: "President Roosevelt signed today a bill to curb traffic in the narcotic, marihuana, through heavy taxes on transactions."
Anslinger as precursor to the Drug Czars
Anslinger was essentially the first Drug Czar. Even though the term didn't exist until William Bennett's position as director of the White House Office of National Drug Policy, Anslinger acted in a similar fashion. In fact, there are some amazing parallels between Anslinger and the current Drug Czar John Walters. Both had kind of a carte blanche to go around demonizing drugs and drug users. Both had resources and a large public podium for their voice to be heard and to promote their personal agenda. Both lied constantly, often when it was unnecessary. Both were racists. Both had the ear of lawmakers, and both realized that they could persuade legislators and others based on lies, particularly if they could co-opt the media into squelching or downplaying any opposition views.
Anslinger even had the ability to circumvent the First Amendment. He banned the Canadian movie "Drug Addict," a 1946 documentary that realistically depicted the drug addicts and law enforcement efforts. He even tried to get Canada to ban the movie in their own country, or failing that, to prevent U.S. citizens from seeing the movie in Canada. Canada refused. (Today, Drug Czar John Walters is trying to bully Canada into keeping harsh marijuana laws.)
Anslinger had 37 years to solidify the propaganda and stifle opposition. The lies continued the entire time (although the stories would adjust -- the 21 year old Florida boy who killed his family of five got younger each time he told it). In 1961, he looked back at his efforts:
"Much of the most irrational juvenile violence and that has written a new chapter of shame and tragedy is traceable directly to this hemp intoxication. A gang of boys tear the clothes from two school girls and rape the screaming girls, one boy after the other. A sixteen-year-old kills his entire family of five in Florida, a man in Minnesota puts a bullet through the head of a stranger on the road; in Colorado husband tries to shoot his wife, kills her grandmother instead and then kills himself. Every one of these crimes had been proceeded [sic] by the smoking of one or more marijuana "reefers." As the marijuana situation grew worse, I knew action had to be taken to get the proper legislation passed. By 1937 under my direction, the Bureau launched two important steps First, a legislative plan to seek from Congress a new law that would place marijuana and its distribution directly under federal control. Second, on radio and at major forums, such that presented annually by the New York Herald Tribune, I told the story of this evil weed of the fields and river beds and roadsides. I wrote articles for magazines; our agents gave hundreds of lectures to parents, educators, social and civic leaders. In network broadcasts I reported on the growing list of crimes, including murder and rape. I described the nature of marijuana and its close kinship to hashish. I continued to hammer at the facts.

I believe we did a thorough job, for the public was alerted and the laws to protect them were passed, both nationally and at the state level. We also brought under control the wild growing marijuana in this country. Working with local authorities, we cleaned up hundreds of acres of marijuana and we uprooted plants sprouting along the roadsides."
After Anslinger
On a break from college in the 70s, I was visiting a church in rural Illinois. There in the literature racks in the back of the church was a lurid pamphlet about the evils of marijuana -- all the old reefer madness propaganda about how it caused insanity and murder. I approached the minister and said "You can't have this in your church. It's all lies, and the church shouldn't be about promoting lies." Fortunately, my dad believed me, and he had the material removed. He didn't even know how it got there. But without me speaking up, neither he nor the other members of the church had any reason NOT to believe what the pamphlet said. The propaganda machine had been that effective.
The narrative since then has been a continual litany of:
• Politicians wanting to appear tough on crime and passing tougher penalties
• Constant increases in spending on law enforcement and prisons
• Racist application of drug laws
• Taxpayer funded propaganda
• Stifling of opposition speech
• Political contributions from corporations that profit from marijuana being illegal (pharmaceuticals, alcohol, etc.)
... but that's another whole story.

[sansou]

MakersMark,

A simple link would have sufficed.

If we are to assume that what you have copied and pasted has any U.S. historical veracity, then how do you explain the fact that marijuana is outlawed in the majority of other countries on planet Earth?

A collective global political conspiracy by the "Man" to keep the Rastafari from dominating the world? The stuff is even illegal in Jamaica!?!

....just some ad hoc theories, work with me here. Apparently any thought is valid on this thread, after all, we have people stating rehab is bunk, and pot does not lead to any type of addiction.

[ElementX]

MakersMark,
If we are to assume that what you have copied and pasted has any U.S. historical veracity, then how do you explain the fact that marijuana is outlawed in the majority of other countries on planet Earth?

One word...Bayer. OK wait, 2 words...Bayer and aspirin.

Sorry, couldn't resist LOL

[sansou]

One word...Bayer. OK wait, 2 words...Bayer and aspirin.

Sorry, couldn't resist LOL

Care to elucidate or do you need to be a card carrying NORML member to understand?

[jimmy951]

Care to elucidate or do you need to be a card carrying NORML member to understand?

no actually you dont have to be a Normal member or a medical marijuana card holder. all you have to do is some research (http://atlanta.injuryboard.com/fda-and-prescription-drugs/bayer-illegal-marketing-of-2-aspirin-products.aspx?googleid=250426)

[jimmy951]

and more research (http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2008/10/fda_bayer.html)

and even more research! wtf heroin?!?! (http://www.chemheritage.org/EducationalServices/pharm/asp/asp80.htm)

so whats worse, a real addiction, or a personality addiction?

[GeordyBass]

I would be pissed if i have to fish with someone thats getting high.

[jimmy951]

I would be pissed if i have to fish with someone thats getting high.

and why is that?

[jimmy951]

look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WLEwRdi0QU)

[GeordyBass]

and why is that?
Smell,stupidity,etc.

Weed(or Illegal drugs or substances)=not allowed in my boat.
not a good example for a 15yr old like me.

[jimmy951]

Smell,stupidity,etc.

Weed(or Illegal drugs or substances)=not allowed in my boat.
not a good example for a 15yr old like me.

fer sure. well an immature kid that's 15 years old should not be contemplating on any subject that doesn't refer to minors any way.

but thanks for your 2 cents, i pretty sure some one will appreciate it.
:ROFL:

[matt duarte]

dont you have to be 16 to drive a boat anyway?...

i want to know what makes you think every or any person the smokes will just light up in front of everyone?? just cause we smoke doesnt mean we dont have any respect.. if i saw you at the lake and was fishing or talkin with you im not going to light up in front of you..heck if i was on your dads boat id even ask if youd care if i smoke a cigarette

calm your self triple X

[sansou]

no actually you dont have to be a Normal member or a medical marijuana card holder. all you have to do is some research (http://atlanta.injuryboard.com/fda-and-prescription-drugs/bayer-illegal-marketing-of-2-aspirin-products.aspx?googleid=250426)

Jimmy951,

When in Rome...



In other words, I find your links are not salient to the question posed to Mr. MakersMark.

Am I to be surprised that large pharmaceutical companies have engineered synthetic narcotics? We all know that. Furthermore, how do your links support your case for legalizing marijuana. Connect the dots for me, I am apparently not as bright as you, or as creative in what I choose to hyperlink.

The question still remains, why is it that marijuana is globally considered an illicit substance? Arguably, if we were the only nation on earth with such a hangup with the plant, one could make the case that marijuana in the US has been maligned and poorly legislated. However, as I see it, our history explains nothing in regards to the attitudes such disparate countries such as, say, Thailand vis Russia handle this substance.

This may be a stretch (so bear with me), could it quite possibly be, perhaps on some cosmically infinitesimally minute level (feel free to toke up and "expand" your mind now), on a Jungian collective level that nearly all forms of functional working governments (democratic, monarchic, oligarchic, communistic, etc... ad nauseam) classify cannabis as an illicit substance because they all have independently figured out that the ills of cannabis outweigh the positive properties???

Get back to me with a relevant link when you sober up. I don't expect original thought from you, so let's just shoot for a relevant link in the future....or not!

[jimmy951]

Get back to me with a relevant link when you sober up.

haha thanks for the bash, but i think ill stay stoned.

[sansou]

haha thanks for the bash, but i think ill stay stoned.

Predictable response.

[tacklejunkie]

Smell,stupidity,etc.

Weed(or Illegal drugs or substances)=not allowed in my boat.
not a good example for a 15yr old like me.

Bro Geordy,
Not all stoners are smelly and stupid :Wink:
Some points that have been repeatedly made in this thread insinuate you may not even know the stoners you may or may not already fish with. Most people out there are pretty discrete about it.

However, I agree. It is not a good example for someone your age to have around.

[jimmy951]

Predictable response.

only if you knew me. :ROFL:

[GeordyBass]

Bro Geordy,
Not all stoners are smelly and stupid :Wink:
Some points that have been repeatedly made in this thread insinuate you may not even know the stoners you may or may not already fish with. Most people out there are pretty discrete about it.

However, I agree. It is not a good example for someone your age to have around.

I understand bro,but still not allowed on my boat.:Wink:

[makersmark]

Jimmy951,

When in Rome...



In other words, I find your links are not salient to the question posed to Mr. MakersMark.

Am I to be surprised that large pharmaceutical companies have engineered synthetic narcotics? We all know that. Furthermore, how do your links support your case for legalizing marijuana. Connect the dots for me, I am apparently not as bright as you, or as creative in what I choose to hyperlink.

The question still remains, why is it that marijuana is globally considered an illicit substance? Arguably, if we were the only nation on earth with such a hangup with the plant, one could make the case that marijuana in the US has been maligned and poorly legislated. However, as I see it, our history explains nothing in regards to the attitudes such disparate countries such as, say, Thailand vis Russia handle this substance.

This may be a stretch (so bear with me), could it quite possibly be, perhaps on some cosmically infinitesimally minute level (feel free to toke up and "expand" your mind now), on a Jungian collective level that nearly all forms of functional working governments (democratic, monarchic, oligarchic, communistic, etc... ad nauseam) classify cannabis as an illicit substance because they all have independently figured out that the ills of cannabis outweigh the positive properties???

Get back to me with a relevant link when you sober up. I don't expect original thought from you, so let's just shoot for a relevant link in the future....or not!

Sansou, find links to the three major International drug control treaties currently in force as well as additional information, and remember you asked for these, so please do not turn around and ask me to read them for you, if you do not wish to read them then perhaps it may be a good idea to refrain from requesting such links.

International Treaty - 1961 Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Convention_on_Narcotic_Drugs

International Treaty - 1971 Convention on Psychotropic Substances
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Psychotropic_Substances

International Treaty - 1988 United Nations Convention Against Illicit Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_Against_Illicit_Traffic_ in_Narcotic_Drugs_and_Psychotropic_Substances

Here is a link to a video that may be interesting to some
http://www.videosift.com/video/American-Drug-War-The-Last-White-Hope-Full-Movie-1

Here is some additional information regarding international drug policy history and info on other countries that feel America forces or bullies them into compliance of their drug policies.

“The international war on drugs is a policy conceived, created and enforced by the government of the United States of America. Eight hundred philosophers, scientists and statesmen say it's time to stop the madness.”

“On June 6, 1998, a surprising letter was delivered to Kofi Annan, secretary-general of the United Nations. We believe, the letter declared, that the global war on drugs is now causing more harm than drug abuse itself. The letter was signed by 800 statesmen, politicians, academics and other public figures. Former UN secretary-general Javier Perez de Cuellar signed. So did George Shultz, the former American secretary of state, and Joycelyn Elders, the former American surgeon-general. Nobel laureates such as Milton Friedman and Argentina's Adolfo Perez Esquivel added their names. Four former presidents and seven former cabinet ministers from Latin American countries signed. And several eminent Canadians were among the signatories.

The drug policies the world has been following for decades are a destructive failure, they said. Trying to stamp out drug abuse by banning drugs has only created an illegal industry worth $400 billion US or roughly eight per cent of international trade. The letter continued: This industry has empowered organized criminals, corrupted governments at all levels, eroded internal security, stimulated violence, and distorted both economic markets and moral values. And it concluded that these were the consequences not of drug use per se, but of decades of failed and futile drug war policies.

This powerful statement landed on Annan's desk just as the United Nations was holding a special assembly on global drug problems. Going into that meeting, the governments of the world appeared all but unanimous in the belief that the best way to combat drug abuse was to ban the production, sale or possession of certain drugs. Drug prohibition, most governments feel, makes harmful substances less available to people and far more expensive than they would otherwise be. Combined with the threat of punishment for using or selling drugs, prohibition significantly cuts the number of people using these substances, thus saving them from the torment of addiction and reducing the personal and social harms drugs can inflict. For these governments—and probably for most people in most countries—drug prohibition is just common sense.

Still, the letter to Annan showed that this view is far from unanimous. In fact, a large and growing number of world leaders and experts think the war on drugs is nothing less than a humanitarian disaster. Still, governments are nearly unanimous in supporting drug prohibition. There is little debate at the official level. It's not easy to imagine alternatives to a policy that has been in place for decades, especially when few people remember how the policy came into being in the first place, or why. War on drugs is a compelling sound bite, whereas the damage drug prohibition may do is complex and impossible to summarize on a bumper sticker.

But the core reason the war on drugs completely dominates the official policies of so many nations, including our own, is simple: The United States insists on it. The international war on drugs is a policy conceived, created and enforced by the government of the United States of America. Originally, nations were cajoled, prodded or bullied into joining it. Then it became international orthodoxy, and today most national governments, including Canada's, are enthusiastic supporters of prohibition. To the extent that they debate drug policy at all, it is only to question how strictly or harshly prohibition should be enforced, not whether the basic idea is sound. The few officials and governments that do stray, even slightly, outside the prohibition orthodoxy are cajoled, manipulated or bullied to get back in.”

Continued in the following link for those interested.
http://hartford-hwp.com/archives/27c/588.html

[matt duarte]

I understand bro,but still not allowed on my dads boat.:Wink:

again no one said they would bring it on your dads boat.. or even announce they smoke so get over your self...i personally wouldnt want to be on a boat with a underage driver... imo teenagers can be just as stipid and be sober...not saying anything towards you but in general.. the funny thing is you say your 15 and say its your boat which is proly your dads anyway, but its illegal for you to drive the boat at your age..and again imo a underage driver is more dangerous than someone sittin on there arse smokin some pot..

[makersmark]

LEAP (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition)
http://leap.cc/cms/index.php


in case some of you dont know this, there is a large group of Law Enforcement personnel that are trying to end prohibition because they have seen first hand the amount of damage it creates, this should say something as they are the very people who enforced these laws.

LEAP's Mission Statement


Founded on March 16, 2002, LEAP is made up of current and former members of law enforcement who believe the existing drug policies have failed in their intended goals of addressing the problems of crime, drug abuse, addiction, juvenile drug use, stopping the flow of illegal drugs into this country and the internal sale and use of illegal drugs. By fighting a war on drugs the government has increased the problems of society and made them far worse. A system of regulation rather than prohibition is a less harmful, more ethical and a more effective public policy.

The mission of LEAP is to reduce the multitude of unintended harmful consequences resulting from fighting the war on drugs and to lessen the incidence of death, disease, crime, and addiction by ultimately ending drug prohibition.

LEAP's goals are:

1. To educate the public, the media, and policy makers, to the failure of current drug policy by presenting a true picture of the history, causes and effects of drug abuse and the crimes related to drug prohibition and
2. To restore the public's respect for law enforcement, which has been greatly diminished by its involvement in imposing drug prohibition.

LEAP's main strategy for accomplishing these goals is to create a constantly enlarging speakers bureau staffed with knowledgeable and articulate former drug-warriors who describe the impact of current drug policies on: police/community relations; the safety of law enforcement officers and suspects; police corruption and misconduct; and the financial and human costs associated with current drug policies.

[JediMindTricks]

again no one said they would bring it on your dads boat.. or even announce they smoke so get over your self...i personally wouldnt want to be on a boat with a underage driver... imo teenagers can be just as stupid and be sober...not saying anything towards you but in general.. the funny thing is you say your 15 and say its your boat which is proly your dads anyway, but its illegal for you to drive the boat at your age..and again imo a underage driver is more dangerous than someone sittin on there arse smokin some pot..

BuuuuuRRrrRRrrNNNNN!
couldn't have said it better myself!

why are you even reading this thread though, GeordyBass? your 15.
go chase some neighborhood girls around little man. I think its good you dont want to smoke marijuana. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone under 18, infact it would be 21 in my opinion, cause most 18 year olds are still dumb *** little punks that think there adults. (I said MOST, not ALL.) Marijuana doesn't concern you right now, just know not to do it and leave it there.

[JediMindTricks]

Bro Geordy,
Not all stoners are smelly and stupid :Wink:
Some points that have been repeatedly made in this thread insinuate you may not even know the stoners you may or may not already fish with. Most people out there are pretty discrete about it.

However, I agree. It is not a good example for someone your age to have around.

another good point.
you dont really have to tell us your 15 little bro, by saying things like, "i dunno, smell, stupidity....." your showing us how young you are. Your making it out to be like people who smoke pot are dead heads, stinky hippie stoners. I hate that we have to break it to you, but out of allllll the nicest, clean cut, respectable people youve ever met, one of them is a stoner. sorry. :Secret:

and you dont have to worry about people bringing pot on your boat.
no grown man wants to smoke pot with, around, near, or close to a 15 year old. Were responsible enough to keep it out of underage kids sight, (most of us anyways) which is why you think no one you know smokes pot.

thou shall not judge little bro.

[GeordyBass]

MD,you cannot justify that MY boats aren't MY boats.I find my way to make $$$,SO I PAID FOR MY BOATS,Why are you also changing my quote?was that neccesary?Or you wanted to bash me some eh....Jedi,whatever you say is what u say,i'm gonna try to get it banned....haha....

[JediMindTricks]

chasing girls is a much funner thing to do, at 15.
trust me.

[GeordyBass]

chasing girls is a much funner thing to do, at 15.
trust me.
yup,,,,:Twisted::ROFL:

[txcurry]

Sansou, find links to the three major International drug control treaties currently in force as well as additional information, and remember you asked for these, so please do not turn around and ask me to read them for you, if you do not wish to read them then perhaps it may be a good idea to refrain from requesting such links.

International Treaty - 1961 Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Convention_on_Narcotic_Drugs

International Treaty - 1971 Convention on Psychotropic Substances
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Psychotropic_Substances

International Treaty - 1988 United Nations Convention Against Illicit Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_Against_Illicit_Traffic_ in_Narcotic_Drugs_and_Psychotropic_Substances

Here is a link to a video that may be interesting to some
http://www.videosift.com/video/American-Drug-War-The-Last-White-Hope-Full-Movie-1

Here is some additional information regarding international drug policy history and info on other countries that feel America forces or bullies them into compliance of their drug policies.

“The international war on drugs is a policy conceived, created and enforced by the government of the United States of America. Eight hundred philosophers, scientists and statesmen say it's time to stop the madness.”

“On June 6, 1998, a surprising letter was delivered to Kofi Annan, secretary-general of the United Nations. We believe, the letter declared, that the global war on drugs is now causing more harm than drug abuse itself. The letter was signed by 800 statesmen, politicians, academics and other public figures. Former UN secretary-general Javier Perez de Cuellar signed. So did George Shultz, the former American secretary of state, and Joycelyn Elders, the former American surgeon-general. Nobel laureates such as Milton Friedman and Argentina's Adolfo Perez Esquivel added their names. Four former presidents and seven former cabinet ministers from Latin American countries signed. And several eminent Canadians were among the signatories.

The drug policies the world has been following for decades are a destructive failure, they said. Trying to stamp out drug abuse by banning drugs has only created an illegal industry worth $400 billion US or roughly eight per cent of international trade. The letter continued: This industry has empowered organized criminals, corrupted governments at all levels, eroded internal security, stimulated violence, and distorted both economic markets and moral values. And it concluded that these were the consequences not of drug use per se, but of decades of failed and futile drug war policies.

This powerful statement landed on Annan's desk just as the United Nations was holding a special assembly on global drug problems. Going into that meeting, the governments of the world appeared all but unanimous in the belief that the best way to combat drug abuse was to ban the production, sale or possession of certain drugs. Drug prohibition, most governments feel, makes harmful substances less available to people and far more expensive than they would otherwise be. Combined with the threat of punishment for using or selling drugs, prohibition significantly cuts the number of people using these substances, thus saving them from the torment of addiction and reducing the personal and social harms drugs can inflict. For these governments—and probably for most people in most countries—drug prohibition is just common sense.

Still, the letter to Annan showed that this view is far from unanimous. In fact, a large and growing number of world leaders and experts think the war on drugs is nothing less than a humanitarian disaster. Still, governments are nearly unanimous in supporting drug prohibition. There is little debate at the official level. It's not easy to imagine alternatives to a policy that has been in place for decades, especially when few people remember how the policy came into being in the first place, or why. War on drugs is a compelling sound bite, whereas the damage drug prohibition may do is complex and impossible to summarize on a bumper sticker.

But the core reason the war on drugs completely dominates the official policies of so many nations, including our own, is simple: The United States insists on it. The international war on drugs is a policy conceived, created and enforced by the government of the United States of America. Originally, nations were cajoled, prodded or bullied into joining it. Then it became international orthodoxy, and today most national governments, including Canada's, are enthusiastic supporters of prohibition. To the extent that they debate drug policy at all, it is only to question how strictly or harshly prohibition should be enforced, not whether the basic idea is sound. The few officials and governments that do stray, even slightly, outside the prohibition orthodoxy are cajoled, manipulated or bullied to get back in.”

Continued in the following link for those interested.
http://hartford-hwp.com/archives/27c/588.html
Ok 800 statesmen, scientists etc. signed a letter to the U.N.. Let's see there's about 6 million scientists in the U.S.. Statesmen, probably about 25000 or more in the U.S.. Are you getting the point here? 800 is a drop in the bucket and means squat!
I can go on the internet and circulate a petition and get twice that number in a week, if it's a meaningful cause!
If a million scientists were supporting legalization I might take note and rethink my ideas, but 800, I don't think that's going to do it!. And who are the presidents? I don't remember more than 5 being alive at the same time, and one of them was Reagan and he had Alzheimers so that leaves him out. Carter, Clinton, Bush1 and Bush2? I don't think Bush 2 would have signed such a deal! Hmmmmm? Just curious on that, not questioning it, I'd just like to know.

[txcurry]

LEAP (Law Enforcement Against Prohibition)
http://leap.cc/cms/index.php


in case some of you dont know this, there is a large group of Law Enforcement personnel that are trying to end prohibition because they have seen first hand the amount of damage it creates, this should say something as they are the very people who enforced these laws.

LEAP's Mission Statement


Founded on March 16, 2002, LEAP is made up of current and former members of law enforcement who believe the existing drug policies have failed in their intended goals of addressing the problems of crime, drug abuse, addiction, juvenile drug use, stopping the flow of illegal drugs into this country and the internal sale and use of illegal drugs. By fighting a war on drugs the government has increased the problems of society and made them far worse. A system of regulation rather than prohibition is a less harmful, more ethical and a more effective public policy.

The mission of LEAP is to reduce the multitude of unintended harmful consequences resulting from fighting the war on drugs and to lessen the incidence of death, disease, crime, and addiction by ultimately ending drug prohibition.

LEAP's goals are:

1. To educate the public, the media, and policy makers, to the failure of current drug policy by presenting a true picture of the history, causes and effects of drug abuse and the crimes related to drug prohibition and
2. To restore the public's respect for law enforcement, which has been greatly diminished by its involvement in imposing drug prohibition.

LEAP's main strategy for accomplishing these goals is to create a constantly enlarging speakers bureau staffed with knowledgeable and articulate former drug-warriors who describe the impact of current drug policies on: police/community relations; the safety of law enforcement officers and suspects; police corruption and misconduct; and the financial and human costs associated with current drug policies.

LEAP on their website shows a membership of 1845, probably about 1/2 to 2/3 are actual law enforcement so say 2/3 about 1200. That's less than half the total of officers on the Dallas Police Rolls not to mention LAPD, maybe a third of theirs. Hardly imposing numbers supporting legalization.

Anyone can make a website and you will find varying opinions in every walk of life. Police and Law enforcement number in the millions, it's not hard to find a couple thousand out of a few million that support legalization. I bet you'll find at least half of that that support NAMBLA among law enforcement!

[ElementX]

No NORML membership nessary!

Aspirin is directly the cause of hundreds of deaths in the US each year, but you are told its safe, and even the AMA recommends a pill a day to prevent blood clots. Bayer patented aspirin back in the late 1800's an pretty much wiped all other forms of competition because they were the first to come out with a convenient, pill-form pain reliever. While you can only patent things for so long in the US, Bayer still holds patents in many countries in the world. Who cares about pot? Who cares about aspirin? Nobody, unless you point out the extremes.

All sides, regardless of view, use the same tactics and methods to argue their case. This is just one of those things that people will never agree on regardless of legality while slinging the same stones.

Is it healthy or unhealthy? Nobody really cares, it always becomes a morals issue.

If you argue that smoking is bad for you, but are told that you don't have to smoke it, it doesn't change how you feel. You still argue that smoking is bad, yet nobody is arguing with you to "smoke"

If you argue that it will only be abused, others will argue anything can be abused.

If you argue it is an addictive substance, others will argue it is no more addictive than other substances that are currently legalized. That wont make you want to save the world against other potentially harmful substances. I think most people can agree that pot isnt in the same league as coke, heroin, or meth but regardless it still has its dangers.

I think things are fine where they are in CA. MJ is decriminalized, but still illegal. Those who are really using MJ medicinally have the access they need. Those who are using it recreationally aren't directly funding the street criminals. If you are deathly against pot, you don't have to worry about your doctor ever suggesting it to you. They follow federal laws, and ignore state laws. If you are not against it, you can at least find a doctor who will discuss it even if it is just to ask questions. The MJ doctor will still advise you to look into other alternatives.

If you argue its for the good of mankind to ban pot, I have to disagree with you. However, I'm willing to exchange it for the prohibition of alcohol and coffee. Lets clean up CA's streets by removing all the drunk drivers, coffee in lap drivers, and stoned drivers. I would be all for that. Imagine how much progress we can make without those distractions.

No matter what is provided as evidence, it will never be enough because as mentioned before, people want a black and white answer.

"Is marijuana good or bad?"

Come on, we all know it will never be that easy. Should it be legalized? I say yes, for adults (ie: those who can legally be held accountable for their actions). Everyone can stay focused on who shouldn't have legal access, but isn't that the case for anything? (ie: I don't want angry people to have access to fertilizer and a moving truck) What happened to everything in moderation? The irresponsible people with addictive personalities jacked it up.

I would not give pot to my kids. I would not give it to your kids. I would not give my kids alcohol. I would not give my kids cigarettes. I would not give my kids Dr prescribed drugs that weren't intended for them. I would not give my kids too much chocolate. I would expect all of us to be more responsible than that. Even aspirin has child safe caps on the bottles so I can easily say something as safe as aspirin shouldn't be freely given to kids.

[tacklejunkie]

Dude I get totally paranoid and shaky off a couple of Excedrin! Is it just me?
Seriously!

[txcurry]

TJ, you know Excedrin has caffeine. I had used it many times to help stay awake on long night time drives, kind of a double duty drug. You take a couple and you don't normally drink coffee, you're gonna shake!!!!

[Skyler]

Dude I get totally paranoid and shaky off a couple of Excedrin! Is it just me?
Seriously!

That's what happens to me when I drink one NOS energy drink, lol.

[matt duarte]

enegry drinks give me bubble guts haha

[JediMindTricks]

That's what happens to me when I drink one NOS energy drink, lol.

NOS is freakin scary to me bro.
I got a few free cases from work, of the larger bottles.
First time i drank one i thought i was gunna die. I didn't even finish it. I acually like the taste though so i kept drinking them.

[fishindude]

i take offense to that man. seriously. **** pisses me off.
i had a serious back injury when i was a kid, i took every pain killer in the book 4 to 8 times a day for years. a young *** kid. I went to a chriropractor 3 times a week for YEARS! Than one day, i had allergic reactions to the pills, my face would swell up, my lips only sometimes, maybe hives, not to mention how lazy some of those drugs make you. ever try to take percacets and goto school?

long story short.......
i became a certified insomniac, my stress level went through the roof, droped out of school, i lost sooooooooo much weight, didn't talk to my friends for over a year straight and at one point, i was so bad, i thought about the worst. sick i know.

i **** you not! when i started smoking herb, weed, pot, ganja, whatever the **** you want to call it.

i slept!
i ate again!
i can literally feel my spine loosin up after i smoke.
i could go out with friends again.
i was back man.

i now have a job where i make $31 a hour and work mad double time hours. I have my own house with a 55inch LG plasma and a brand new Lifted F-150. I could go on. My point is i live a very nice life, im respected by my co-workers and friends and they all know i smoke pot. Heavily. And you wouldn't even know i was high. There just glad to have me back.

so you can take that attitude and shove it man. Just because you dont like weed, doesn't mean it cant benefit someone else no matter what you say. Infact your opinion on it being bad means NOTHING anymore, because the proof is on our side now. Why do you think Arnold is thinking of legalizing it?
WEED SAVED MY LIFE. LITERALLY.

and about using the word herb to be socially exceptable, thats such BS. I could care less what you or anyone else thinks about it, or what word i use.

i love WEED.

So sorry to hear man. Even after taking an hour to read this whole thread, I tried to stay out of it, but I just want to put my two cents up now. Honestly, I have NEVER used marijuana in my life. Also, don't blame me as I don't know much about legalization of marijuana. I believe that marijuana should be legal to those who truly need it for a good purpose. Sure marijuana has the high effect, but doesn't seem to cause as much damage to the body when compared to alcohol or cigarettes. I know will be attacked for this, but hey, I'm only 17 and am still learning about politics and society. There are pros and cons to legalization, such as the ability to tax, with a con possibly being easy access and many more people getting high. Cigarettes kill, but Uncle Sam makes money off of it, as cannabis is natural and not stuffed with ammonia, nicotine, cyanide, tar, etc. I leave it for future taxpayers and voters to decide.