Believe it, we're next.

[plumbertom]

The commission that is charged with implementing the Marine Life Protection Act is is in the process of taking dead aim at some of our best fishing areas off southern California's inshore and island areas.
I have posted about this before when they were working north and central Ca. but now it's our turn.
Unless you want to see all of the best fishing spots made off limits by people that have absolutely no concern for your right to fish and a total disregard for any and all scientific date that has been collected concerning recreational fishing, YOU must get involved now.
Join UASC at http://www.unitedanglers.com/page.php?2 or any other group that is fighting these arrogant anti-fishing East coasters.
We must be prepared before they get started here. They have already closed much of the North and Central coast leaving only the most barren areas to fish.
Do you think they will not close areas like Catalina and Clemente or the Horseshoe and Barn kelp, how about the Clam beds off Oceanside?
If we don't get involved in this fight with our time AND OUR DOLLARS we will be fishing only the sand flats.
Now is the time to take a stand and tell these people that they have gone far enough, it stops here.

[tacklejunkie]

The first thing that website wants from me is my credit or checking info..
Good cause though. If I could, I'd help out. I'd hate to see some of my favorite inshore spots closed off.

[plumbertom]

Of course they ask for money, it's the page for joining up.
If you want more information just click on the banner at the top for what you want to know.

[Stormcrow]

As a biologist I can tell you that the scientific data that forced closures north of Point Conception to rock fishing was not only accurate, but overwhelmingly so. Unfortunately, most of the data was directly tied to recreational fishing. What is worse, there are many species of rockfish affected and some scientists estimate that recovery will take decades. In addition, these are NOT arrogant east coast scientists but those working at Scripps, UCSB, UC Santa Cruz, University of San Francisco, and friends of mine from CSUF.


Fishing is a huge part of my life, but so is conservation. I can't support what youre doing here.

[Tail Chaser]

As a biologist I can tell you that the scientific data that forced closures north of Point Conception to rock fishing was not only accurate, but overwhelmingly so. Unfortunately, most of the data was directly tied to recreational fishing. What is worse, there are many species of rockfish affected and some scientists estimate that recovery will take decades. In addition, these are NOT arrogant east coast scientists but those working at Scripps, UCSB, UC Santa Cruz, University of San Francisco, and friends of mine from CSUF.


Fishing is a huge part of my life, but so is conservation. I can't support what youre doing here.
Why don't you go back to the freshwater board.
All you do is argue on the saltwater boards.
Apparently the lives of the freshwater fish is meaningless.

[Stormcrow]

Why don't you go back to the freshwater board.
All you do is argue on the saltwater boards.
Apparently the lives of the freshwater fish is meaningless.

Im just dissagreeing, Please dont flame me. I would hate to see these spots closed too. But Im sure if they do, it will be for a very good reason. It will protect fishing for all of us in the future.

I am all about conservation for fresh water fish as well. I did graduate work in the field. LMB are a species that are easily released and their populations easily monitored. Rockfish, on the other hand, cannot be released a majority of the time due to drastic depth change problems. Scientists are very concerned about MVP (Minimum Viable Population) If a population falls below that mathematically calculated number, a series of events ensue called the "extinction vortex" which leads to the total extinction of a population in that area. This is what scientists are trying to avoid at all costs.

I hope it never comes to that in our local waters. Perhaps more stringent rules would help conservation efforts at horseshoe kelp, clemente and catalina.

[HBJapo]

Why don't you go back to the freshwater board.
All you do is argue on the saltwater boards.
Apparently the lives of the freshwater fish is meaningless.

2 more times with that attitude and you're going to lose your privaleges and your gear mister........but, with a smile.

Gotta support SC on this one.

Japo :mrgreen:

[tacklejunkie]

Ah yes. Now I see.
If they are closing areas after educated research, there is likely a reason for it and I'd have to support their reasoning. Looks like I didn't know it but I'm with SC on this one as well.

[Tail Chaser]

2 more times with that attitude and you're going to lose your privaleges and your gear mister........but, with a smile.

Gotta support SC on this one.

Japo :mrgreen:

Yes Officer,
I understand officer.
So I have two more times :mrgreen:

[Tail Chaser]

Im just dissagreeing, Please dont flame me. I would hate to see these spots closed too. But Im sure if they do, it will be for a very good reason. It will protect fishing for all of us in the future.

I am all about conservation for fresh water fish as well. I did graduate work in the field. LMB are a species that are easily released and their populations easily monitored. Rockfish, on the other hand, cannot be released a majority of the time due to drastic depth change problems. Scientists are very concerned about MVP (Minimum Viable Population) If a population falls below that mathematically calculated number, a series of events ensue called the "extinction vortex" which leads to the total extinction of a population in that area. This is what scientists are trying to avoid at all costs.

I hope it never comes to that in our local waters. Perhaps more stringent rules would help conservation efforts at horseshoe kelp, clemente and catalina.

Your right Stormcrow.
Rockfish don't have a chance. I don't fish for them.
The fishery's in our waters are very bad. I personally think we are allowed to keep to many fish of certain species. Or maybe were allowed to keep to small of fish. Maybe the commercial guys are whats causing the problem. I'm not the expert.
Looks whats happening with the Bonita now. Fishings been slow for a long time.
All of a sudden some good fighting fish move into our waters.
Now everybody's targeting them. No catch and release.
People keeping 5 or more fish weighing near 15lbs ea. What percentage of anglers actually like the taste of Bonita? Maybe 10%. Theres going to be a lot of wasted life.
Same things going to happen with the Barracuda when they show.

Sorry for the flame.
Didnt read the post close enough. (Rockfishing Grounds)
I over reacted thinking they would be closing off an entire area for any type fishing. Like WSB and Yellowtail. Like some areas of the Channel Islands are closed.
Just pisses me off. Being a responsible angler and then having our waters closed for our use.
Keeping one or two quality fish for table fair lasting up to three weeks is not over fishing in my books.

Guess my post should have read.
Rockfishing grounds up North Closed?
So What, There only rockfish.
Let the little critters live :lol:

I would think using circle hooks and having one of them dehookers would help catch and release efforts for most fish.

[plumbertom]

As a biologist I can tell you that the scientific data that forced closures north of Point Conception to rock fishing was not only accurate, but overwhelmingly so. Unfortunately, most of the data was directly tied to recreational fishing. What is worse, there are many species of rockfish affected and some scientists estimate that recovery will take decades. In addition, these are NOT arrogant east coast scientists but those working at Scripps, UCSB, UC Santa Cruz, University of San Francisco, and friends of mine from CSUF.


Fishing is a huge part of my life, but so is conservation. I can't support what youre doing here.
As a fisherman I believe in consumptive conservation.
That said, re-read what I am talking about.
I'm not referring to the rock fish closures that are put into effect by our F&G as I have always supported protecting our fish stocks from overfishing and have advocated closed seasons even for years if needed, but to the wholesale closures of large areas as a "try it and see what happens" type of approach.
Take a look at what "research" was done on both the pro closure and anti closure side of the MLPA issue and you will not be able to defend yours or your friends positions.

[plumbertom]

Didnt read the post close enough. (Rockfishing Grounds)
I over reacted thinking they would be closing off an entire area for any type fishing. Like WSB and Yellowtail. Like some areas of the Channel Islands are closed.
Just pisses me off. Being a responsible angler and then having our waters closed for our use.
Stormcrow is trying to mislead you into thinking that UASC and my post is taking a stand aginst regulating the fish catch. That is not so.
What we are fighting is complete closures to entire areas to any and all fishing.
This is what MLPA is doing and so far all the areas that have been closed have been done with out taking into consideration of economic or social/recreational impact of the closures.

[Stormcrow]

Stormcrow is trying to mislead you into thinking that UASC and my post is taking a stand aginst regulating the fish catch. That is not so.
What we are fighting is complete closures to entire areas to any and all fishing.
This is what MLPA is doing and so far all the areas that have been closed have been done with out taking into consideration of economic or social/recreational impact of the closures.

Im not trying to mislead anyone. Perhaps I misread the article? Nobody is in favor of closing large areas of fishing grounds for nothing. It isnt logical. What would be the benefit for any scientist to go out of their way to promote ground closure???? There usually is a good reason and I simply pointed it out based on Rockfish Closures north of Pt. Conception. I remember how upset the cattle boat fleet was because of that. They were ignorant because they had no clue how damaged the fishery was. They will be grateful when those grounds open again instead of bieng barren wasteland waters forever. Marine succession takes decades on average.

BrokenRod is right, it would be a shame to see local fisheries closed because of overfishing. I agree, very few people actually like the taste of Bonito but if you saw that other thread, all the gunny sacks were FULL of them. So, its only a matter of time before that fishery is destroyed as well.

One good example of conservation is the Catalina WSB fishery that was actually near extinction as few as 15 years ago. Now, with strict size and fish limits that were put in place around spawn time in addition to the fingerling hatchery here in So Cal, the population has rebounded amazingly. And people get to keep a 40 lb WSB so its a huge accomplishment.

[Tail Chaser]

Stormcrow is trying to mislead you into thinking that UASC and my post is taking a stand aginst regulating the fish catch. That is not so.
What we are fighting is complete closures to entire areas to any and all fishing.
This is what MLPA is doing and so far all the areas that have been closed have been done with out taking into consideration of economic or social/recreational impact of the closures.

I wasn't able to find any info on pending closures on united anglers website.
Sure hope there not taking the politicians way of doing things.

Like closing down 20.000 acres of offroad riding areas in the Calif desert.
All because of a endangered desert turtle. (They blamed the offroaders)
It was actually birds killing the turtles. (A Falcon)

I wonder if the Seals are eating all the rock fish :rolleyes:

If you could post a map of the potential closure areas.
That would give people the necessary wake up call.

[GeordyBass]

"god damn hippies",
-Southpark's Cartman
:LOL:
"KILL EM' ALL"

[plumbertom]

Im not trying to mislead anyone. Perhaps I misread the article? Nobody is in favor of closing large areas of fishing grounds for nothing. It isnt logical. What would be the benefit for any scientist to go out of their way to promote ground closure???? There usually is a good reason and I simply pointed it out based on Rockfish Closures north of Pt. Conception. I remember how upset the cattle boat fleet was because of that. They were ignorant because they had no clue how damaged the fishery was. They will be grateful when those grounds open again instead of bieng barren wasteland waters forever. Marine succession takes decades on average.

BrokenRod is right, it would be a shame to see local fisheries closed because of overfishing. I agree, very few people actually like the taste of Bonito but if you saw that other thread, all the gunny sacks were FULL of them. So, its only a matter of time before that fishery is destroyed as well.

One good example of conservation is the Catalina WSB fishery that was actually near extinction as few as 15 years ago. Now, with strict size and fish limits that were put in place around spawn time in addition to the fingerling hatchery here in So Cal, the population has rebounded amazingly. And people get to keep a 40 lb WSB so its a huge accomplishment.
Okay, so I may have misinterprated your post.
MLPA closures are coming to southern Ca.
We need to be prepared before the meetings start.
There will be no maps available until the proposals are presented at the meetings.
Funny you should bring up the WSB recovery since UASC has been operating WSB grow out pens at several Harbors along the S.C. coast and has released more than 1,000,000 tagged WSB into the local waters.

[Tail Chaser]

[QUOTE=Stormcrow;188953

One good example of conservation is the Catalina WSB fishery that was actually near extinction as few as 15 years ago. Now, with strict size and fish limits that were put in place around spawn time in addition to the fingerling hatchery here in So Cal, the population has rebounded amazingly. And people get to keep a 40 lb WSB so its a huge accomplishment.[/QUOTE]

My goal is a 50 lb WSB.
Even if I have to jump in the water.
Chase him down and shoot him.

[plumbertom]

My goal is a 50 lb WSB.

Yeah, ain't it for us all?

[Tail Chaser]

Yeah, ain't it for us all?

Seems to me that more people are interested in the Bones.
Then there's a lot of anglers that don't/can't get to the WSB/Yellowtail grounds.
Which is a good thing :LOL:

[TerryC]

Most State, Federal, and college studies funded by grants and/or public funds need to be scrutinized with a fine tooth comb. I hate to be a *** regarding this but biologist working under grants or for the State/Fed's need to find issues to continue to get funding. No problem, no funding. No funding, no job......Correct?

If a biologist is working for me (the public) we have every right to question the integrity of there work. They should be required to prove there findings and submit those finding for peer review.

And I agree with Broken Rod about the ESA. This law is the biggest pile of crap I have ever read. The bottom line is that it does little more than restrict land use (indefinitely) in area's.

The recovery plan is always habitat restoration which basically means restricted (human) land use. During the land use restrictions very little is done (most of the time nothing is done). No restoration, and seldom any captive breeding, why is that?

Only in rare cases does the act or the politicians provide funding to get a species on a real recovery path if a real recovery can or even does exist.. The California Condor is the only local species that comes to mind. Ton's of money is spent on the studies to include a species on the list but almost nothing for recovery. That dosen't smell to good in my book.

The endangered species act has been abused, under funded, and does very little to truely help endangered species recover. Its a great tool for land closures though.

I am sure that the Delhi Sands flower-loving fly, the Southwestern arroyo toad or some endangered fungus really deserves the full force of the state and federal government along with its resources to protect it. An all inclusive act such as the ESA is ripe for abuse or does the Spotted Owl really need old growth forests to live in?

The law needs to be re-written. Fully fund the recovery of a species (if a real recovery plan will work) or don't list the species at all. Half *** measures are a abuse of the public trust and funds.

[CAPT'N]

Stormcrow,

as a scientist I am surprised that you are not familiar with the research at Long Beach College. They have done extensive studies on releasing deep water rockfish, and have had a 80%+ survival rate after 24 hours. In fact they monitor many of the fish for days to see how long it takes for chemical levels in their blood to return to normal, and normal feeding activity to resume.

In fact, DFG has a new brochure on releaseing fish, it should be accessible by now at their site. I encourage allto search it out, read it, and implement the release of all small rock fish.

Check it out,

Capt'n

[JSAUCE818]

This is a Good thread...

[Tail Chaser]

Most State, Federal, and college studies funded by grants and/or public funds need to be scrutinized with a fine tooth comb. I hate to be a *** regarding this but biologist working under grants or for the State/Fed's need to find issues to continue to get funding. No problem, no funding. No funding, no job......Correct?

If a biologist is working for me (the public) we have every right to question the integrity of there work. They should be required to prove there findings and submit those finding for peer review.

And I agree with Broken Rod about the ESA. This law is the biggest pile of crap I have ever read. The bottom line is that it does little more than restrict land use (indefinitely) in area's.

The recovery plan is always habitat restoration which basically means restricted (human) land use. During the land use restrictions very little is done (most of the time nothing is done). No restoration, and seldom any captive breeding, why is that?

Only in rare cases does the act or the politicians provide funding to get a species on a real recovery path if a real recovery can or even does exist.. The California Condor is the only local species that comes to mind. Ton's of money is spent on the studies to include a species on the list but almost nothing for recovery. That dosen't smell to good in my book.

The endangered species act has been abused, under funded, and does very little to truely help endangered species recover. Its a great tool for land closures though.

I am sure that the Delhi Sands flower-loving fly, the Southwestern arroyo toad or some endangered fungus really deserves the full force of the state and federal government along with its resources to protect it. An all inclusive act such as the ESA is ripe for abuse or does the Spotted Owl really need old growth forests to live in?

The law needs to be re-written. Fully fund the recovery of a species (if a real recovery plan will work) or don't list the species at all. Half *** measures are a abuse of the public trust and funds.

How about closing down Glamis. California's #1 Sand Dune Riding area.
They were protecting the dunes from tire tracks.:Gay Fight: The tracks would be there till the next wind blows.
You wouldn't even see most of the tracks unless you were flying overhead in a helicopter:rolleyes:
Guess this is what happens when politicians/lawmakers have never stepped out of an office there entire life.
Then find out, OH MY GOD There's been people in the ocean and enjoying our land.:Evil:

[Stormcrow]

Stormcrow,

as a scientist I am surprised that you are not familiar with the research at Long Beach College. They have done extensive studies on releasing deep water rockfish, and have had a 80%+ survival rate after 24 hours. In fact they monitor many of the fish for days to see how long it takes for chemical levels in their blood to return to normal, and normal feeding activity to resume.

In fact, DFG has a new brochure on releaseing fish, it should be accessible by now at their site. I encourage allto search it out, read it, and implement the release of all small rock fish.

Check it out,

Capt'n

I have never heard of anything like that. Safe release of Rockfish? Nearly impossible depending on depth. Are you referring to Long Beach City College or Cal State Long Beach? I would love to see this information and so would several people I know....

And now, someone has mentioned rewriting the entire endangered species act??????????:Shocked: How did we get to this? The Arroyo Toad? Santa Ana River Wooly Star? Coachella Valley Fringe Toad Lizard? California Freshwater Shrimp? Yes, they all have recovery plans in place....

[jplee3]

Stormcrow,

as a scientist I am surprised that you are not familiar with the research at Long Beach College. They have done extensive studies on releasing deep water rockfish, and have had a 80%+ survival rate after 24 hours. In fact they monitor many of the fish for days to see how long it takes for chemical levels in their blood to return to normal, and normal feeding activity to resume.

In fact, DFG has a new brochure on releaseing fish, it should be accessible by now at their site. I encourage allto search it out, read it, and implement the release of all small rock fish.

Check it out,

Capt'n

I thought I read/heard something supporting this somewhere. More specifically, that you can use a hypodermic needle to slowly allow the air out of the swimbladder so that the fish will be 'normalized' or something along those lines... EDIT, nevermind what I said. I came across this:

http://www.thecalifornian.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080515/SPORTS/805150305

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/marine/pdfs/release.pdf

[CAPT'N]

The research was done by Cal State Long Beach graduate students under the direction of Prof/Dr. Chris Lowe.

He received a B.A. in marine
biology at Barrington College, a M.S. in
biology at Cal. State Long Beach and
his Ph.D. in zoology at the University
of Hawaii. In 1998, he was hired as a
professor of marine biology at Cal
State Long Beach where he runs a
shark lab. Over the last 20 years he
has used and developed acoustic
telemetry techniques to study move-
ments, behavior and physiology of
sharks, stingrays and gamefishes.
Much of his recent work has involved
quantifying the ecological importance
of offshore petroleum platforms, the
effects of catch and release practices
on gamefishes, and techniques to opti-
mize MPA design.

I was fortunate enough to sit in on a presentation by Prof. Lowe. Both the rock fish release , and the oil platform studies were fascinating.

As far as puncturing the stomach of a rock fish, it is almost certain death. There are some very interesting concepts to rock fish release. www-csgc.ucsd.edu/NEWSROOM/NEWSRELEASES/2008/BringRockfishDown.html

Capt'n

[CAPT'N]

By the way, it is NOT the swim bladder, but the stomach that has been displaced by the bladder.

[CAPT'N]

Here is more information

www-csgc.ucsd.edu/NEWSROOM/NEWSRELEASES/2008/documents/printBAROTRAUMA_BRO-2008.pdf

[Stormcrow]

I thought I read/heard something supporting this somewhere. More specifically, that you can use a hypodermic needle to slowly allow the air out of the swimbladder so that the fish will be 'normalized' or something along those lines... EDIT, nevermind what I said. I came across this:

http://www.thecalifornian.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080515/SPORTS/805150305

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/marine/pdfs/release.pdf


Thats very good info. I also heard from Don Iovino that needling LMB causes more harm than good. This was a good read. Its even supporting in a way because the DFG admits that Crating floaters is difficult to do and time consuming adding that most anglers will simply ignore that. Its too bad.

[pyronut]

OK the dfg closes good fishing areas like the islands, Horseshoe kelp, Palo verdes Point, Barn kelp and several other areas, Do you really think they will ever open these areas again. Come on I have seen several places closed for BS reasons and told by govt officals that they will reopen in a few years. Well I live here in Vegas and I have recently seen huge areas of the desert closed because the BLM dose not want to patrol them. Where do you think it is going to change there in California when you have a underfunded, undermaned, and totally misrun DFG. Once these areas have been closed they will never be opened again.

Myself personally I will be there to fight any other closures. The DFG needs a major overhaul there and be run correctly not run by a bunch of money hungry, Lazy people who only make excuses and not changes. Seems funny when I lived there license fees have almost tripled sence I moved away but you have fewer and fewer officers to enforce the laws already in place.

This is just my 2cents...

Pyronut

[TerryC]

Interesting read on the wooley star that was mentioned.

The Santa Ana River Woolly Star - an endangered plant with stringy branches and small, purplish tubular flowers

I was interested in this because I live in LE. 20-25 min from Santa Ana River.

"In Riverside County this species is threatened by floodplain modification for flood control purposes and development; flood control management (clearing for channel maintenance and construction of flood control structures); off-road vehicle activity; grazing (resulting in heavy weed cover); farming; sand and gravel mining; and loss of habitat and competition with aggressive non-native species such as European grasses and river cane"

Santa Ana River woolly-star is known only from two small populations (less then 10 individuals) near Market Street within the City of Riverside and west of Fairmont Park and Golf Course http://ecoregion.ucr.edu/full.asp?sp_num=221

I would consider this a non-viable population not worth spending time or money on. How can anyone rationalize listing it? Its a weed, correction, ten weeds, that doesn't even contribute any significance to other wild life in the area, but those 10 weeds can stop and restrict human activity and flood plain development. Is ten weeds more important then flood plain maintenance and developement?

This is a perfect example of what the ESA does. If this species is of such importance, why isn't it transplanted, grown in a controled enviorment, and then re-introduced into it's natural habitat. Could it be that the powers that be considers it a weed not worthy of anything? Would it be irresponsible of the legislature to provide public funding to insure that this weed survives? Am I being to critical. Maybe I should cut back on my cafine intake.

Please tell me why the ESA dosen't need to be re-written.

@ Broken Rod...As for Glamis, here is an interesting read. Not sure how much wieght I would give to it but interesting none the less. http://www.glamisonline.org/Editorials/big_picture.asp

[TerryC]

The DFG needs a major overhaul there and be run correctly not run by a bunch of money hungry, Lazy people who only make excuses and not changes

With any agency, Fed or State, the core problem comes from the executive and the legislative branch. What needs a overhaul is Sacramento in general.

[Tail Chaser]

Please tell me why the ESA dosen't need to be re-written.

@ Broken Rod...As for Glamis, here is an interesting read. Not sure how much wieght I would give to it but interesting none the less. http://www.glamisonline.org/Editorials/big_picture.asp

Some good reading there. Had my bird wrong. On the desert protection act.
I do no sand riding (Boring) Maybe 5% desert.
Last trip to the desert. During the first ten minutes of riding.
Just smoked by my Pro Riding buddy on my XR 650 paralleling a sand wash on a single track trail.
Was greeted with a barbed wire fence doing like 70mph.
I almost made the turn. Bike touched the fence. But my Body did not.
That was within 2 miles of the main staging area in So Calif #1 hardcore desert riding areas :Evil:
Most of my riding is the back country of Gorman (Top of The Grapevine)
No fences blocking the main trails there.
Use to be able to ride there in rain/snow year round didn't matter.(best time to ride)
Now days they close it during/after them conditions.
Maybe to many rookies needing a helicopter to get them out.
Also for erosion control.
At least its not for Mtn Ants or Tree Pollen.

[Tail Chaser]

With any agency, Fed or State, the core problem comes from the executive and the legislative branch. What needs a overhaul is Sacramento in general.
Now the challenge.
How to convert this into a positive thread.
With them people running things. :confused:

OH YEH!..... The WSB are at the Channel Islands :Dancing Banana:
Just need to cruise over some 7'/9' ft swells to get there. :LOL:

[Stormcrow]

I do agree with most of you guys that the EDA needs a major overhaul.

I just dont know how that got into the thread!! LOL

For Terry C.- The Santa Ana River Wooly Star is still above MVP, even with only about 10 individuals left in the wild. The genetic variation among the population is big enough to ensure its recovery with protection.

Right now, the Seven Oaks Dam Project is the Wooly Star's biggest threat.

[TerryC]

I do agree with most of you guys that the EDA needs a major overhaul.

I just dont know how that got into the thread!! LOL

For Terry C.- The Santa Ana River Wooly Star is still above MVP, even with only about 10 individuals left in the wild. The genetic variation among the population is big enough to ensure its recovery with protection.

Right now, the Seven Oaks Dam Project is the Wooly Star's biggest threat.


And the point is?

I understand this is probably not the right forum to be discussing this in however, the Wooly Star is still a weed, and not a very good looking weed at that: http://ecoregion.ucr.edu/fullpictures.asp?sp_num=221&image_id=193 and: http://ecoregion.ucr.edu/fullpictures.asp?sp_num=221&image_id=194 but I guess beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

"Seven Oaks Dam Project is the Wooly Star's biggest threat" You mean to tell me it's not off roading, farming, cleaning the flood control channel, non-native grasses and cane?

I must be missing something. How important is 10 weeds vs. the importance of a reservoir to control flooding is?. Please educate me on this because I am ignorant and my common sense has abandon me once again?


Now the challenge.
How to convert this into a positive thread.
With them people running things.

OH YEH!..... The WSB are at the Channel Islands
Just need to cruise over some 7'/9' ft swells to get there.

:D Sounds like fun and suicide at the same time. :LOL:

[Tail Chaser]

And the point is?

I understand this is probably not the right forum to be discussing this in however, the Wooly Star is still a weed, and not a very good looking weed at that: http://ecoregion.ucr.edu/fullpictures.asp?sp_num=221&image_id=193 and: http://ecoregion.ucr.edu/fullpictures.asp?sp_num=221&image_id=194 but I guess beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

"Seven Oaks Dam Project is the Wooly Star's biggest threat" You mean to tell me it's not off roading, farming, cleaning the flood control channel, non-native grasses and cane?

I must be missing something. How important is 10 weeds vs. the importance of a reservoir to control flooding is?. Please educate me on this because I am ignorant and my common sense has abandon me once again?



:D Sounds like fun and suicide at the same time. :LOL:
Only when the wind blows.
Its the wind blown twelve footers I haven't got over yet.
Ive got an old girlfriend that thinks those conditions are fun.
She does pucker a bit when the waves turn toward the stern though. :LOL:

The logic must be......
That the 10 ugly weeds are a living entity. The gift of life.
Where as...... A flooded out neighborhood is only a materialistic structure.
The structures can be repaired or replaced.

Weeds are living things, They have rights too. :Gay Fight:
You should have known that Terry :LOL:

[TerryC]

Only when the wind blows.
Its the wind blown twelve footers I haven't got over yet.
Ive got an old girlfriend that thinks those conditions are fun.
She does pucker a bit when the waves turn toward the stern though.

Although its been awhile, I do remember the pucker facter on a couple of trips across the chanel on a small boat. 12 foot wind swept waves would definately increase the pucker tightness in most people I would suspect.


Weeds are living things, They have rights too.
You should have known that Terry

Oh yah, Bio-diversity 101.

Now I have to ponder, How many stalks of wheat give their lives for a loaf of whole-grain bread? And Carrots...They're ripped out of the ground while alive, and basically eaten alive. I don't even want to think about what happens to corn.

The biggest threat to these species are farmers, there equipment, native and non-native field workers, a hungry U.S. population that should feel real guilty for there existence.

Congress needs to act. We should close the mid-west to protect these species.

[Tail Chaser]

Although its been awhile, I do remember the pucker facter on a couple of trips across the chanel on a small boat. 12 foot wind swept waves would definately increase the pucker tightness in most people I would suspect.



Oh yah, Bio-diversity 101.

Now I have to ponder, How many stalks of wheat give their lives for a loaf of whole-grain bread? And Carrots...They're ripped out of the ground while alive, and basically eaten alive. I don't even want to think about what happens to corn.

The biggest threat to these species are farmers, there equipment, native and non-native field workers, a hungry U.S. population that should feel real guilty for there existence.

Congress needs to act. We should close the mid-west to protect these species.

Thanks a lot.
Now I'm going to have nightmares thinking of the horrifying torture that our poor Fruits, Veggies, and Grains go through.
If the captured terrorist only knew how good they had it.

[legacy1]

What percentage of anglers actually like the taste of Bonita? Maybe 10%. Theres going to be a lot of wasted life.



Amen brother!

[sansou]

I'm a bit surprised no one has yet to mention the fact Susan Golding is the chair for Phase II of the MLPA implementation. That fact alone would stop most sane & self-respecting citizens from giving the MLPA any credence...

[Stormcrow]

And the point is?

I understand this is probably not the right forum to be discussing this in however, the Wooly Star is still a weed, and not a very good looking weed at that: http://ecoregion.ucr.edu/fullpictures.asp?sp_num=221&image_id=193 and: http://ecoregion.ucr.edu/fullpictures.asp?sp_num=221&image_id=194 but I guess beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

"Seven Oaks Dam Project is the Wooly Star's biggest threat" You mean to tell me it's not off roading, farming, cleaning the flood control channel, non-native grasses and cane?

I must be missing something. How important is 10 weeds vs. the importance of a reservoir to control flooding is?. Please educate me on this because I am ignorant and my common sense has abandon me once again?



:D Sounds like fun and suicide at the same time. :LOL:

You mentioned viable population....I was simply addressing that.

The point is I was just adding to the conversation and agreeing with you on the fact that the ESA needs to be updated. You didnt miss anything. Sounds like I did.

But for the record. ANY species going extinct is a tragedy. All species have intrinsic value. To lose any is a huge loss in itself.

[TerryC]

"intrinsic value"

Thats were I disagree. Does a cockroach or termite have intrinsic value? What you consider value I, and many others, (maybe even the majority of the population ) may consider pests.

Biologist can write reports all they want, come up with all those foo foo names but it dosn't change the fact that this is a weed that serves little or no purpose. No one would mis it if it was gone.

To stop, hinder, or restrict maintenance of a flood control channel is insane for a population of ten weeds or anything else for that matter. Are those 10 weeds worth the lives of thousands of people down stream? or do humans have any instrisnic value? Protecting weeds is just a small example of what is wrong with the ESA.

[breeze71]

As a biologist I can tell you that the scientific data that forced closures north of Point Conception to rock fishing was not only accurate, but overwhelmingly so. Unfortunately, most of the data was directly tied to recreational fishing. What is worse, there are many species of rockfish affected and some scientists estimate that recovery will take decades. In addition, these are NOT arrogant east coast scientists but those working at Scripps, UCSB, UC Santa Cruz, University of San Francisco, and friends of mine from CSUF.


Fishing is a huge part of my life, but so is conservation. I can't support what youre doing here.

Unless you had the exact parameters to do the research & did the research yourself how could you possibly stand by the bold underlined statement?

All this information that you're throwing about being a marine biologist that knows his info inside and out is making me dizzy and probably many of the guys on here too. Why don't you go ahead and scan your PHD certificate in Marine Biology then post it here so all us skeptics can at least begin to think that you know your stuff & possibly help the phantom cause you are pursuing!


Interesting read on the wooley star that was mentioned.

The Santa Ana River Woolly Star - an endangered plant with stringy branches and small, purplish tubular flowers

I was interested in this because I live in LE. 20-25 min from Santa Ana River.

"In Riverside County this species is threatened by floodplain modification for flood control purposes and development; flood control management (clearing for channel maintenance and construction of flood control structures); off-road vehicle activity; grazing (resulting in heavy weed cover); farming; sand and gravel mining; and loss of habitat and competition with aggressive non-native species such as European grasses and river cane"

Santa Ana River woolly-star is known only from two small populations (less then 10 individuals) near Market Street within the City of Riverside and west of Fairmont Park and Golf Course http://ecoregion.ucr.edu/full.asp?sp_num=221

I would consider this a non-viable population not worth spending time or money on. How can anyone rationalize listing it? Its a weed, correction, ten weeds, that doesn't even contribute any significance to other wild life in the area, but those 10 weeds can stop and restrict human activity and flood plain development. Is ten weeds more important then flood plain maintenance and developement?

This is a perfect example of what the ESA does. If this species is of such importance, why isn't it transplanted, grown in a controled enviorment, and then re-introduced into it's natural habitat. Could it be that the powers that be considers it a weed not worthy of anything? Would it be irresponsible of the legislature to provide public funding to insure that this weed survives? Am I being to critical. Maybe I should cut back on my cafine intake.

Please tell me why the ESA dosen't need to be re-written.

@ Broken Rod...As for Glamis, here is an interesting read. Not sure how much wieght I would give to it but interesting none the less. http://www.glamisonline.org/Editorials/big_picture.asp

They can move those 10 weeds into my backyard if it's going to open up a thousand new jobs. I'm sure the weeds would thrive with the rest of thousand back there.

[Stormcrow]

Unless you had the exact parameters to do the research & did the research yourself how could you possibly stand by the bold underlined statement?

All this information that you're throwing about being a marine biologist that knows his info inside and out is making me dizzy and probably many of the guys on here too. Why don't you go ahead and scan your PHD certificate in Marine Biology then post it here so all us skeptics can at least begin to think that you know your stuff & possibly help the phantom cause you are pursuing!



They can move those 10 weeds into my backyard if it's going to open up a thousand new jobs. I'm sure the weeds would thrive with the rest of thousand back there.


Breeze, listen to me, and Ill use small words to make sure you understand: Someone insinuated that I didnt know what I was talking about. I simply provided my credentials in education....which apparently you missed as I never said I was a marine biologist. I do, however, hold an M.S. in Conservation Biology and now I am doing PhD work in the same field. Which happens to make me qualified to discuss this thread while a hater like yourself was probably not even in the same state.

Terry C disagrees with what has intrinsic value. I can understand that. At least I can respect that even if I dont agree with him. You, on the other hand, are looking to discredit me without bieng armed with any facts at all. My data comes from published, peer reviewed, scientific journals. Journals that you must subscribe to in order to access, so do yourself a favor and dont bother to ask what they are.

Im trying to make this a positive thread. You seem to be upset because you dont understand some of the terminology Im using. Thats not my fault. Your making it difficult. If you dont have anything constructive to say. Just leave. If you have anything mean to say to me, please do it by P.M.

One more thing. Dont you EVER change my font size in a quote from me again in an attempt to make me look like Im yelling. Thats cowardly and stupid. Did you think I didnt notice?

Now go mow your backyard.

Kthxbye

[Stormcrow]

"intrinsic value"

Thats were I disagree. Does a cockroach or termite have intrinsic value? What you consider value I, and many others, (maybe even the majority of the population ) may consider pests.

Biologist can write reports all they want, come up with all those foo foo names but it dosn't change the fact that this is a weed that serves little or no purpose. No one would mis it if it was gone.

To stop, hinder, or restrict maintenance of a flood control channel is insane for a population of ten weeds or anything else for that matter. Are those 10 weeds worth the lives of thousands of people down stream? or do humans have any instrisnic value? Protecting weeds is just a small example of what is wrong with the ESA.

Yes, I do believe that a termite and a cockroach have intrinsic value. We all might think, myself included, that both species are pests, which they are. However, neither of us understand the depth of evolution in its entirety and both termites and cockroaches fill a niche in their ecosystems on a level that we may not completely grasp. I would never be so arrogant as to think that because I have to use Raid from time to time that Earth would be better off without cockroaches and termites.

[TerryC]

Stormcrow...I will always disagree with that argument. I do realize some species effect the ecosystem more than others. Species that are listed as endangered have minimal effect on the ecosystem. In other words, the effects on the ecosystem has already occurred or has ran its coarse.

The divide is what to do or how to handle it. To invoke a general closure of a area or restrict activity or development for an infinite amount of time lacks common sense in most cases.

Most of the time, in the biological report, it list a whole host of reasons that may have contributed to the species degradation. That same list of reasons may not have contributed to the species degradation as well.

The closure of public or State land should never be left up to a agency that dose not answer to the electorate. All public closures should be required to pass a standards test prior to closure for the protection of a species.

This standards test should be required to have legislative approval and mandated funding to restore the species to a sustainable number that can survive the historical activity that occurs in the area.

If this can not be accomplished or the legislature does not list or fund the recovery then the species and its habitat should not warrant any further protection or restricted use.

The legislature should be responsible for closures not an agencies administrators that might fall prey to outside influences or favor a special interest agenda. Keep in mind these species and there habitats do not belong to any agency, any biologist, any enviromentalist group, or a off road group. They belong to the people. Agencies do not answer to the people...the legislature does.