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View Full Version : Lake Tahoe could turn murky green within a decade



sky
03-26-2008, 04:24 AM
Lake Tahoe

http://aquafornia.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/lake-tahoe-by-leto-a.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/christianabe/975043726/)

From the Los Angeles Times:

Global climate change may be causing a pivotal shift in the depths of Lake Tahoe that could fundamentally alter its ecology by the end of the next decade and turn its famed jewel-blue waters a murky hue, according to a recent study.
The research and computer modeling by scientists at UC Davis predict that warming could limit the lake’s natural mixing cycle, disrupting the food web and potentially robbing it of the clarity that has helped make Tahoe a world-class tourist destination.
Experts from the university’s Tahoe Environmental Research Center suspect the changes could occur within a decade and prove irreversible. Among the likely results are fewer native fish and larger populations of invasive species, such as large-mouth bass, bluegill and carp.

Full Story: http://www.latimes.com/news/science/environment/la-me-tahoe25mar25,1,599307.story?track=rss

tpfishnfool
03-27-2008, 07:03 AM
Sounds Like somebody has been listening to Al Gore !! The Earth Has a Feaver.. Idiots !!
The Earth goes through a cycle just like everything else. Take it easy.. If you do your homework you will find the earths temp is lower now than it was 100 years ago.

one_leg
03-27-2008, 08:48 AM
Haven't been up there since the 80's and I miss the place a lot.

I have to make a trip up there before it turns into pea soup.

Time for some Mackinaw trolling me thinks:rolleyes:




ONE_LEG

chris
03-27-2008, 11:25 AM
Sounds Like somebody has been listening to Al Gore !! The Earth Has a Feaver.. Idiots !!
The Earth goes through a cycle just like everything else. Take it easy.. If you do your homework you will find the earths temp is lower now than it was 100 years ago.


actually this summer is going to change the last 100 years and this is going to be the hottest since 1908. Info came from the farmers almanac. Not sure if i believe in global warming but i am taking all precautions not to addd to the pollution.

spartafish
03-27-2008, 03:13 PM
im as conservative as they come, but i am also an environmental studies major about to graduate. and the comment above is the exact kind of comment that makes narrow-minded- neo-conservative-christian-righted whack jobs sound like the arrogant *** holes that they are. to deny anthropocentric acceleration of the warming of the earth's environment is as filled with denial as anything.

sure, the earth has gone though cycles for millions of years. but it has done so naturally, on its own. not with the help of humans. biosystems have been allowed the appropriate time to migrate with the naturally occuring climate change in the past; however, today, this change is accelerated due to our doing and biosystems cant keep up with it. drive through the LA basin and ask me if thats natural.

and your bullshit about your scientific research telling us that global warming is fake...sight your sources. just because a news article says something, doesnt make it true...the news can say anything.

soooooooo, as you continue to think theres nothing wrong with the earth and the course it is taking, you remember your opinion now when gas is $10 a gallon, there are no more beaches to go surf fishing, lake tahoe is filled with algae and even more of our rivers are dried up.

tpfishnfool
03-27-2008, 04:37 PM
I just gassed up the hummer and now its off to the forest we go.. Gona ride my two stroke
motorcycle and rip up some trails!! Bite me sierra Clubbers..

Ragetron
03-27-2008, 05:43 PM
im as conservative as they come, but i am also an environmental studies major about to graduate. and the comment above is the exact kind of comment that makes narrow-minded- neo-conservative-christian-righted whack jobs sound like the arrogant *** holes that they are. to deny anthropocentric acceleration of the warming of the earth's environment is as filled with denial as anything.

sure, the earth has gone though cycles for millions of years. but it has done so naturally, on its own. not with the help of humans. biosystems have been allowed the appropriate time to migrate with the naturally occuring climate change in the past; however, today, this change is accelerated due to our doing and biosystems cant keep up with it. drive through the LA basin and ask me if thats natural.

and your bullshit about your scientific research telling us that global warming is fake...sight your sources. just because a news article says something, doesnt make it true...the news can say anything.

soooooooo, as you continue to think theres nothing wrong with the earth and the course it is taking, you remember your opinion now when gas is $10 a gallon, there are no more beaches to go surf fishing, lake tahoe is filled with algae and even more of our rivers are dried up.

well said, unfortunately it seems that the overwhelming majority of people would rather play dumb and just hope that all the smart people aren't right.

spartafish
03-27-2008, 05:58 PM
I just gassed up the hummer and now its off to the forest we go.. Gona ride my two stroke
motorcycle and rip up some trails!! Bite me sierra Clubbers..

only if you knew what the sierra club has done for trout and salmon water throughout the country. along with trout unlimited, these organizations have preserved and protected many of the few remaining healthy fisheries in this country. so while these memebers of the sierra club and other organizations are fishing pristine waters that they worked hard to protect, you can enjoy yourself on the LA river.

and who you kidding? you probably couldn't afford the wheels that go on a hummer. and if you could, then thats good for you. spend some of your money and go get edumacated.

txcurry
03-30-2008, 09:49 AM
narrow-minded- neo-conservative-christian-righted whack jobs sound like the arrogant *** holes that they are.
This kind of rhetoric is exactly the kind of response expected from a radical progressive. It is an attempt at discounting any other view than ones own by disparaging the messenger.
*

There is evidence that the warming present for the last ten years is a result of solar activity. This activity creates solar winds which block cosmic radiation. Cosmic radiation is a large contributor to cloud formation. Clouds are the main factor in the regulation of surface temperatures.
This warming of the surface temps has increased the release of CO2 from the oceans. Oceans are less able to retain their CO2 when warm. Therefore, CO2 is a result and NOT the cause of global warming.
This is only one part of the equation.
I suggest you look at the research on the other side of this issue. Try Michael Coffman PHD.'s DVD "Global Warming or Global Governance?" to start. There is a lot of convincing evidence on the other side. To resort to epithets is not conducive to reasonable discussion on this issue.

chris
03-30-2008, 10:08 AM
I just gassed up the hummer and now its off to the forest we go.. Gona ride my two stroke
motorcycle and rip up some trails!! Bite me sierra Clubbers..

that's why i choose to drive my cobalt and downsized to the 15 horsepower and walk when i can. I'll help do your share!

txcurry
03-30-2008, 11:43 AM
Here's an article from The American Institute of Physics you should read.
http://www.aip.org/pnu/2003/split/642-2.html
This is an article about research which confirms the relationship of solar activity and Global warming.

txcurry
03-30-2008, 12:05 PM
Here is more information ( since it was suggested that one should list sources). My contention is not that global warming is fake but that man's contribution to it is minimal. As a matter of fact there are many in the scientific community that believe that the warming trend will reverse itself in the next couple of years and that in fact we are headed for global cooling.
Remember, there was a time that the scientific communty held supersonic flight as an impossibility. So are we to believe it when 1/3 of the scientific community tells us that global warming has been caused by increases in CO2 as the result of man's activities.
Also remember that these scientists will no longer receive thier Billions of dollars in government grant monies if thier theory is disproved. This would seem to me to be a huge incentive to scoff at those of us who hold to the theories that global warming is natural.
By the way, the researchers who look into natural causes for these phenomenon DO NOT recieve ANY money from big oil companies like the CO2=Global Warming crowd would like you to believe.

*Solar Flare Intermittency and the Earth’s Temperature Anomalies

Nicola Scafetta1,2 and Bruce J. West1,2,3
1Pratt School EE Department, Duke University, P.O. Box 90291, Durham, North Carolina 27708, USA
2Physics Department, Duke University, Durham, North Carolina 27708, USA
3Mathematics Division, Army Research Office, Research Triangle Park, North Carolina 27709, USA

Received 6 March 2003; published 17 June 2003

We argue that Earth’s short-term temperature anomalies and the solar flare intermittency are linked. The analysis is based upon the study of the scaling of both the spreading and the entropy of the diffusion generated by the fluctuations of the temperature time series. The joint use of these two methods evidences the presence of a Lévy component in the temporal persistence of the temperature data sets that corresponds to the one that would be induced by the solar flare intermittency. The mean monthly temperature data sets cover the period from 1856 to 2002.

©2003 The American Physical Society

IncredibleHuck
03-30-2008, 01:54 PM
Just as txcyrry says there are many plaes you can get stuff out for sources.

As AL Gore says there is global warming and all of the glaciers are retreating, then why is it that in other areas of the world, glaciers are advancing? Why has Mt. Kilimanjaro been getting colder each and every year?

Go read "Fear" by Michael Chriciton and that may enlighten to you about global warming.

one_leg
03-30-2008, 02:52 PM
I think that the recent contaminated beef recall will turn out to be a good thing.

They disposed of those herds and criminal actions were taken against the owner of the ranch.

All those cows farting methane were contributing to global warming for sure.

It already smells a lot better out there. :cool:

I heard that sheep dung smells a lot worse than the cow crap. Is that true?

fishtales
03-30-2008, 07:01 PM
im as conservative as they come, but i am also an environmental studies major about to graduate. and the comment above is the exact kind of comment that makes narrow-minded- neo-conservative-christian-righted whack jobs sound like the arrogant *** holes that they are.

deleted by me

spartafish
04-01-2008, 01:57 PM
Just as txcyrry says there are many plaes you can get stuff out for sources.

As AL Gore says there is global warming and all of the glaciers are retreating, then why is it that in other areas of the world, glaciers are advancing? Why has Mt. Kilimanjaro been getting colder each and every year?

Go read "Fear" by Michael Chriciton and that may enlighten to you about global warming.

did you really just use a fiction writer to support your argument? c'mon, this is rediculous. i know "Fear" which is actually "State of Fear" (i guess you didnt read the cover), sites its sources and everything, but it does in regards to what its about: ecoterrorism. and i dont think anyone is ready to support or defend ecoterrorism. so i just dont understand what this book has to do with global climate change.

and its funny how the American Association of PETROLEUM Geologists awarded Chrichton their journalism award for this STORY.

spartafish
04-01-2008, 02:03 PM
Here's an article from The American Institute of Physics you should read.
http://www.aip.org/pnu/2003/split/642-2.html
This is an article about research which confirms the relationship of solar activity and Global warming.

This research confirms the relationship of solar activity and global warming? NO, it seems you have confirmed this. the article says many times that it SUGGESTS a relationship. nowhere does it claim that it confirms or proves anything.

however, it has been proven that CFCs, methane, hydrocarbons and the such do actually decrease ozone where ozone is needed and increase ozone where ozone is bad.

and again, your "evidence" isnt anything. this is a summary of someones research. peer reviewed article? havent seen it.

explain to me why every single UN scientist claims an anthropocentric acceleration of global climate change. what do these UN scientist have to gain from encouraging alternative fuel sources, recycling and abatement? nothing.

chris
04-01-2008, 02:30 PM
explain to me why every single UN scientist claims an anthropocentric acceleration of global climate change. what do these UN scientist have to gain from encouraging alternative fuel sources, recycling and abatement? nothing.

well said spartafish

rusty6
04-02-2008, 12:55 PM
why don't we just argue about abortion and the death penalty while we are at it! let's throw in the war in iraq as well. hey what about using the bomb in japan or maybe question the existance of a greater being or the possibility of extra terrestrials! sounds like fun to me!

Brian_GSC
04-02-2008, 01:35 PM
Thank God Al Gore created the internet so we could argue about this online!

DocSpotty
04-07-2008, 12:24 AM
from sparta:
"im as conservative as they come, but i am also an environmental studies major about to graduate. and the comment above is the exact kind of comment that makes narrow-minded- neo-conservative-christian-righted whack jobs sound like the arrogant *** holes that they are. to deny anthropocentric acceleration of the warming of the earth's environment is as filled with denial as anything."

Maybe a bit more forensics in your educational career would have led you away from such silly ad hominem attacks and let you address the subject presented. Anthropocentirc acceleration.....wow.... I use to be "as conservative as they come" but am now more in the center with a decided green leaning. It is correct that to deny evidence of global warming is just not fact based BUT the causes for such are merely speculation by whichever side you happen to be on and none can be constured as scientific fact. This articles' particular claim to fame is:

"Through extensive computer modeling, the scientists determined that the deep mixing may not occur as frequently in the future because of global warming."

Another wow...."extensive computer modeling"....certainly that must be scientific fact...LOL.

from sparta:
"soooooooo, as you continue to think theres nothing wrong with the earth and the course it is taking, you remember your opinion now when gas is $10 a gallon, there are no more beaches to go surf fishing, lake tahoe is filled with algae and even more of our rivers are dried up."

We have gotten a tad off the subject of this particular article....why don't we discuss String Theory also. Not sure what ten dollar gas has to do with water clarity in Lake Tahoe...and if it was that expensive maybe we would all use our internal combustion engines far less and do less polluting of the atmosphere.

by Ragatron:
"well said, unfortunately it seems that the overwhelming majority of people would rather play dumb and just hope that all the smart people aren't right."

Another nice ad hominem attack....as those disagreeing are obviously not "smart people". I can give you guys with multiple Phd's who disagree with human's speeding up .... wait, anthropocentric acceleration....global warming....obviously they are not smart either.

from sparta:
"only if you knew what the sierra club has done for trout and salmon water throughout the country. along with trout unlimited, these organizations have preserved and protected many of the few remaining healthy fisheries in this country. so while these memebers of the sierra club and other organizations are fishing pristine waters that they worked hard to protect, you can enjoy yourself on the LA river."

Well sparta I hardly think anyone involved in this tangential discussion was responsible for channelizing the LA River, or the Santa Ana River, etc...and destroying entire races of oncorhynchus mykiss irideus (anadramous from, of course). That was a long time ago. BTW I am a member of TU....and grew up in SoCal but live in Alaska now....it looks a great deal more like Diety originally made it.

from txcurry:
"This kind of rhetoric is exactly the kind of response expected from a radical progressive. It is an attempt at discounting any other view than ones own by disparaging the messenger.
*There is evidence that the warming present for the last ten years is a result of solar activity. This activity creates solar winds which block cosmic radiation. Cosmic radiation is a large contributor to cloud formation. Clouds are the main factor in the regulation of surface temperatures.
This warming of the surface temps has increased the release of CO2 from the oceans. Oceans are less able to retain their CO2 when warm. Therefore, CO2 is a result and NOT the cause of global warming.
This is only one part of the equation.
I suggest you look at the research on the other side of this issue. Try Michael Coffman PHD.'s DVD "Global Warming or Global Governance?" to start. There is a lot of convincing evidence on the other side. To resort to epithets is not conducive to reasonable discussion on this issue."

You almost devolved to spartas' tactics with that RP remark....and the theory you quote is postulated by many other's.....I could give sparta some examples from Ohio St. research, etc..but it is really moot.

from spartafish:
"id you really just use a fiction writer to support your argument? c'mon, this is rediculous. i know "Fear" which is actually "State of Fear" (i guess you didnt read the cover), sites its sources and everything, but it does in regards to what its about: ecoterrorism. and i dont think anyone is ready to support or defend ecoterrorism."

You better go look up "ad hominem". And if no one was ready to support or defend ecoterrorism then why does it exists.......aliens?

from spartafish:
"This research confirms the relationship of solar activity and global warming? NO, it seems you have confirmed this. the article says many times that it SUGGESTS a relationship. nowhere does it claim that it confirms or proves anything."

Just as the research in this article (remember the original topic?) is based on "computer modeling"....hardly "confirms or proves anything." Again....this is still all theory and not fact.

from spartafish:
"and again, your "evidence" isnt anything. this is a summary of someones research. peer reviewed article? havent seen it."

Okay....just for the exercise...try Robert Essenhigh at Ohio State.....he graduated from Cambridge twice and Sheffield once....pretty prestigious, if one is impressed by that sort of thing. His published articles in major scientific journals in his field all require peer review and he firmly believes the theory of the previous mentioned article. Maybe he's stupid too. Big dummy.

from spartafish:
"explain to me why every single UN scientist claims an anthropocentric acceleration of global climate change. what do these UN scientist have to gain from encouraging alternative fuel sources, recycling and abatement? nothing."

Ohmigosh....most anyone with UN would do anything to stick it to the United States and as these claims invariable do as we are largest, industrialized, fossil fuel, coal burning polluters in the world. Their anti-American rhetoric gets old fast....again off the subject.

Which finally brings back to the actual topic of this waylaid thread....how about the clarity of Lake Tahoe? What is so totally insincere in this study is their comment on the decreasing clarity since 1968: "The lake's clarity also has diminished over the years. While visitors to the lake could see down an average depth of 102.4 feet in 1968, by 2006 visibility extended to an average depth of just 67.7 feet, a decline of about one foot per year." It's beyond comprehension that they were so inept as to leave out the water clarity figure for 2007 except intentionally. Because last year the water clarity INCREASED to 73+ feet...an increase of 5 feet in 1 year! But not consistent with their hypothesis so they "conveniently" left it out. Laughable.

This is from the article also:

"At stake is the lake's fragile ecosystem, with scientists expecting that climate change will affect the chemistry of the lake by preventing its many layers of water from mixing, depleting the bottom levels of oxygen. Some types of fish will need to move to shallower waters in the 1,644-foot-deep lake, where they will be threatened by non-native and, in many cases, aggressive fish such as the largemouth bass that has already appeared along the Tahoe Keys.

"The biggest immediate impact from that is if this happens over the course of decades, we may lose a lot of the valuable trout and cold water fish habitat,"

Few fish exist below 100 feet.....then the statement about invasive largemouth....followed by "we may lose ... valuable trout..." All of the current trout in Lake Tahoe are NON-NATIVE species. The only native trout to Tahoe was the Lahontan Cutthroat which was eradicated in Tahoe (and Pyramid) Lake in 1939. There is a remnant population of mountain whitefish and the remaining 5 native species are minnows and chubs.....not highly revered by most people. So this article truly smacks of intentional insincerity and I'm not sure if they list any peer review?

I can list you pages of information from The Lake Tahoe Enviornmental Education Coalition (BTW based from a cooperative effort of the University of Nevada and the University of California systems) indicating the loss of clarity has been known for decades and has, by them, been attributed to human pollution from all the building (which, coincidentally, has mushroomed in recent decades as the clarity has decreased) along the shores and primarily phosphate pollution. Yes, as humans we suck and don't do what we should to protect the enviornment. Not ONCE do they mention global warming....perhaps they are just uninformed....of course, that wouldn't speak well of anyone matriculating there (sorry, spartafish....I couldn't resist).

Sorry to go on this diatribe but it just snowed 4 inches yesterday through today and it's torquing me off. But actually reading both sides of the issue with eyes open helps in understanding it. Personally....I believe we may be accelerating global warming.....long term effects...no one knows....short term we are seeing a few. But then again, it could be a natural cycle in the earth's progression. Do we need to do stuff to stop our polluting? Yes, WAY MORE than we have, especially in the US...but then I'm getting old.

Good night,
Dr. Brian D. Wight.....always fun to put that "Dr" at the front.......lol

Socal man
04-07-2008, 05:47 PM
holy crap that was a long post!!!

rusty6
04-07-2008, 10:30 PM
bravo! that was quite impressive.

IslandBoi
04-08-2008, 12:32 PM
Like it was said in the Matrix

Human Beings are a plague .... A cancer ..... We eat up all resources and when we run out .... We go somewhere else ....

It's funny how I hear all these people talk about global warming and something needs to be done and then I hear other people talk about global warming is fake .....

So much denial on both parts ... He said/She said crap.... It's obvious that something is going on .... So why can't we just figure it out and do something ....

sky
04-08-2008, 03:16 PM
Like it was said in the Matrix

Human Beings are a plague .... A cancer ..... We eat up all resources and when we run out .... We go somewhere else ....

It's funny how I hear all these people talk about global warming and something needs to be done and then I hear other people talk about global warming is fake .....

So much denial on both parts ... He said/She said crap.... It's obvious that something is going on .... So why can't we just figure it out and do something ....

I think the reason why, might be similar to puting on an outing...few people want to be the leader/organizer - which requires that you be responsible - the majority of the people want to be followers - because it doesn't require much - if any responsibility. All you have to do is show up. The leader/organizer has to coordinate the outing in order to make it happen. Few people get involved if it requires that you "do" something. Even if it means committing to bringing something to the pot luck picnic.

I was telling a friend of mine that I might have to change my whole trip plans this summer - because the lakes up north are beginning to ban boats from Southern California, and a number of the local lakes I go to in Southern California are beginning to ban outside boats - or they have restrictions if you go to the lake that has quagga mussels you have to wait 10 days before you go to another lake.

She said to me, "why don't YOU do something about it?" - so I contacted the Governor's office, and the Department of Fish and Game, and a friend of mine who can build the boat contamination systems, who called and spoke to the Department of Fish and Game. Then I emailed out so far 400+ emails to all the people I know who kayak; I posted a memo on this web site, and 4 other fishing web sites, asking them to write/call the Department of Fish and Game and the Governor's office, passing a bill to require that lakes build boat decontamination systems instead of banning outside boats, which will effect hordes of businesses financially. (Way beyond the amount of money it would cost to build the boat decontamination systems.)

NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON EMAILED ME BACK. Troutman was the only one who responded:
Sky, You have a very noble Idea. If a lake gets infected with the Quagga/ Zebra mussel its all about containment at that point. The equiment your talking about is very expencive and I am not sure if the Gov. is willing to spend the $$ to do what your talking about. This is only my opinion.I would hope someone would step up and tackel this problem and nip it in the bud.


Troutman65

If they don't spend the 100 grand to build the boat decontamination systems, the financial loss for all of the concessionaires, marinas, fishing tackle shops, kayak, boats, jet, skis, windsurfers manufacturers and employees and retail shops, park employees etc. in California are going to be hit hard in the wallet if they start closing the lakes to outside boats as the solution to the quagga mussel problem.

My proposal included charging a $4.00 fee for people who brought a boat to pay for the maintenance and cost of building the boat decontamination systems....the water districts solution is to ban outside boats....

So you ask, " why can't we just figure it out and do something .." Well Troutman summed up my point beautifully, "I would hope someone would step up and tackel this problem and nip it in the bud."

I believe the reason why we can't figure it out and do something about it comes down to:

People want someone else to do the work.(pay for it)..They want to show up at the lake and fish/boat etc. (or outing) but I would have to say the majority of the people don't want to do the work themselves....they want someone else to step up to the plate and do something about it, so they don't have to.

Can you tell I am having a bad day????? :(

fishfinder
04-09-2008, 05:01 AM
I just gassed up the hummer and now its off to the forest we go.. Gona ride my two stroke
motorcycle and rip up some trails!! Bite me sierra Clubbers..

Dont forget to run over those dam frogs...........

muskyman
04-09-2008, 06:18 AM
so with the global changes , can we expect to see more of manbearpig ? I'm cereal too.

IslandBoi
04-15-2008, 03:45 PM
I think most people are so caught up in their selfish existence to even fathom the possibility that what they do individually has a very big effect on the world around them.

People don't care what happens to outr lakes and streams, but let their internet go down and it's time to wage all out war on someone.

Like my father once told me. "What you do effect more then just your life. Think about the consequences of your actions before you act."

studlyfisherman
04-17-2008, 07:36 PM
All I want to say is blow some CO2 out your ***** spartagay! Just shut it clown...look at me i study the environment blah blah...who does that? well i do but you are still gay...gay gay gay.

txcurry
04-17-2008, 07:49 PM
Just for the record, I enjoyed your totally reasonably thought out post Brian (Dr. Wight). You have obviously done YOUR homework.
Just as you pointed out in many different areas of your post, there is always more to the picture than meets the eye, and most studies' conclusions are just theories.
It seems that too many times the scientific community suffers from the "Chicken Little Syndrome".
The scientific community in general has the general notion that changes in the Earths environment has always occurred over thousands of years and whenever a rapid change occurs it is automatically assumed that that change must be the result of man's activities because nature takes more time. Then they set out to prove that it is man's fault using data in a manner that only supports their theory because in their minds it HAS to be man's fault. Thus the skewed report on Lake Tahoe etc.
Charlie, an East Texan transplanted from CA to escape the stifling CA government.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y226/TXCurry/Backhouseoverpond.jpg
my piece of heaven